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TDO
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:28 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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By the same token, if a taxi journeyman is granted an additional plate, this does not really increase supply, assuming that he continues to work a similar number of hours – clearly this was not envisaged by the legislation. The implication underpinning the legislation seems to be that granting a new taxi plate will increase supply, but if it is granted to a currently working driver then it will not increase supply, so is it the case that the restrictions were never intended to apply to currently working drivers? Of course, the test does seem to assume that granting a taxi plate to current drivers will increase supply but clearly this line of thought lacks logic.


I dont understand this, you say if extra plates are granted it doesnt increase supply?

A couple of points.......

1) How isnt supply increased with extra taxis?

2) If supply isnt increased whats the point in delimitation?

A confused paragraph, well it confused me anyway.....was this a deliberate ploy? hehe :wink:


1) Because the paragraph states that the journeyman still works the same hours, so how could supply increase?

2) It gets rid of all the other criticisms made in the document, plus you forget the PH crossover element.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:31 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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However, if the new license is granted to a PH driver then this will increase taxi supply, but the extent of this will depend on whether he continues to service the pre-booked market, in which case he might well only take a small proportion of his total work from the street market with his new taxi license.


Ahh I see, so we can increase taxi numbers, just so long as a plate is granted to a new entrant to the trade then? hmmmm and you were telling us all about democracy a few minutes ago :wink:


No, that paragraph was demonstrating the inadequacy of the unmet demand test.

Anyway, what has that got to do with democracy?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:34 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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One point worth mentioning is that in some areas only working taxi drivers are eligible for new taxi licenses, so even the possibility of a shift from private hire can be dismissed.

In this regard it is interesting that the T&G and others have chosen to highlight the fact that restricting taxi plate numbers compels a greater utilisation of the vehicle, which they make a virtue of insofar as it is claimed that it increases unsocial hours coverage. However, it is clear that the legislation does not take account of double-shifting either – two one-driver cars are the same in supply terms as one two-driver car, but the legislation assumes that the former is twice the latter. Thus the T&G seems to be implying that the legislation is flawed.


Again I dont really understand the second point, perhaps you could enlighten me.
:wink:

Are you suggesting that a single shifted vehicle does the same hours as a double shifted vehicle?


No, that's what the legislation seems to assume.

If the jockey on a double-shifted car gets a plate, the number of taxis has doubled (according to Halcrow et al), but supply is still the same surely?

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Gateshead Angel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:37 am 
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captain cab wrote:
I'm not a particular fan of surveys myself, but if thats the only way licenses are going to be issued, then perhaps its a case of better the devil you know.

Regarding the format of the survey, perhaps input should be given by all parties as to what people actually want from it.

I would rather be rid of the devil full-stop.

No restriction means no surveys. That will do for me.


And a tidy fee from your specialist taxi solicitor mate for his assistance.

No investigation means no way of knowing what is required, derestriction signifies unmet demand and so by allowing an unlimited number of plates you are wrongly attracting people into a trade from which they are not able to make a decent standard of living.

You tell people to do their homework before joining the trade, but if licensing authorities are promoting more vehicles then why would a person not be able to take it for granted that a living could be made.

Its total bullshit, it doesn't work and it delivers nothing to the consumer.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:40 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Flaws in the independent surveys


Hehe, I thought they'd be wrong. :wink:

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To assess whether unmet demand for taxi services is evident, case law indicates that a survey should be undertaken by an independent body. In general terms, these surveys undertake observations at taxi ranks and use the data to ascertain how many additional taxis are required to meet any unmet demand that is manifested.


Correct. :wink:

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One major flaw, identified by the OFT, is that the surveys take no account of demand in the hail market – clearly a significant source of taxi work. Another major flaw is that the surveys fail to take sufficient account of ‘latent’ demand; that is demand that is not satisfied due to the lack of taxis available. To illustrate this, it is clear that large parts of London are not served by taxis, but this is obviously due to qualitative barriers to entering the trade rather than quantity controls on taxis. However, assuming that this lack of service was due to quantity controls then if an unmet demand survey was undertaken this would clearly not include areas currently not serviced by taxis – thus if there is no supply then there will be no demand, and thus no unmet demand evidenced.


I'm not sure how significant hailing it actually is, with the exception of London.

But then, London does not have surveys, so why is there a persistence in looking at London?

an irellevent point really :wink: (dont say mine or yours)


I think that basically the more urban the area, the more hailing there is.

But if HCs cherry pick areas, then the true extent of hailing cannot be ascertained.

The reason for looking at London is that a lot of people who know the trade knows that HCs concentrate on the centre (apart from the yellow badges), so it's a good analogy, because apart from London most people that will be reading the document will only know their own area.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:45 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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In the provinces it is clear that in cities like Manchester taxis are able to cherry-pick which areas to serve (primarily city centres) thus in suburban areas customers will secure a PHV in the pre-booked market and will not even consider getting a taxi, therefore the cherry-picking means that there is no unmet demand manifested in neglected areas.


Yes, however you do miss a point, even if Manchester or where-ever is completely delimited, there is no guarantee that vehicles will ply for hire in suburban areas.

Indeed, the simple fact is that with more taxis, more taxis will ply for hire in the town centres.


If there were no PH and too many HCs then the centre would not sustain them and some would migrate to the suburbs, probably doing mainly radio work, and some street work.

But the qualitative aspect means there will still be some PH in most places even with de-limitation, so there would still be cherry picking going on.

The qualitative barriers to entering the HC trade are dealt with elsewhere in the document.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:47 am 
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Incidentally, I think Livepool is a good example of more widespread HC coverage, but I think the growth in PH in recent years may have encroached onto that.

Edinburgh was similar I think - the numbers are in there someplace.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:49 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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The London example also illustrates another flaw in the application of the test, namely the lack of consideration of any quality barriers that deter entry to the taxi sector. Thus in London it is clear that if entry to the taxi sector was unregulated or lightly regulated then the current PH/minicab sector would provide a taxi service in suburban areas. But the point again is that the quality barriers stifle supply of taxis thus again there is no demand in many areas and therefore no unmet demand.


Back to delimited London :wink:

So what its saying is that PH dont currently serve Londons suburbs?

So we cannot have standards of entry now? the public is going to love this. :wink:


No, I said taxi service.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:51 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Neither is the demand for taxis in the pre-booked sector considered – in the extreme example of Dundee at one time taxis serviced substantially all of the pre-booked market undertaken by PHVs in other locations, and it seems that even now only the existence of quantity controls on taxis precludes the operation of an almost 100% taxi-only supply-side.


I think the point of the exersize is starting to be eroded.

Local authorities usually call for more taxis and surveys when they think there is a significant unmet demand. This is queues of people waiting long periods at taxi ranks.

So what the document states here is basically its okay if you cant get a vehicle by phone from a PH firm, but scandalous if you cant get a vehicle from a taxi firm by phone.

Hmmm, sounds fair :wink:


The point was that the surveys don't measure demand for pre-booked taxis.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:53 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Therefore, irrespective of whether or not surveys correctly measure unmet demand, what seems clear is that the proportion of taxis operating in an area is largely arbitrary, and depends on the past pattern of local regulation. Thus it is arguable that the unmet demand test and associated surveys merely endorse the status quo and entrench the vested interests of the taxi plate holder group.


I dont want to run through the figures shown, in general figures can show what the reader whats them to show.
:wink:

I find the final sentence amazing :shock:

Your saying independant surveys are not a good thing and are effectively biased towards the trade. One hell of a conclusion wouldnt you say? :wink:

Either people are waiting long periods for taxis or they are not.

It is surely upto the Local authority, survey company, existing and prospective trades, as to how deep the survey will go?


The document is a critique of current practice, so I can't see your point.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:00 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Of course, that is not to say that taxi de-restriction would largely wipe out PHVs in urban areas, since qualitative barriers to taxi operation (such as a purpose built vehicle requirement) will perpetuate a large PH sector. On the other hand, Liverpool and Edinburgh both have taxi sectors significantly larger than the PH trade (despite both having purpose built taxi requirements and quantity controls) resulting in plate values of £25-30,000. Factors here could be past de-restrictions and a lack of business activity in the PH sector allowing a relatively greater penetration of taxis into pre-booked work than is evident in similarly-sized de-restricted cities such as Sheffield.


slightly confused here.

Quote:
Of course, that is not to say that taxi de-restriction would largely wipe out PHVs in urban areas, since qualitative barriers to taxi operation (such as a purpose built vehicle requirement) will perpetuate a large PH sector.


okay, so how do you know that? are you drawing your own conclusion?





Well I think that's what you'll find in most places that have de-limited?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:07 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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But it seems likely that in the three Scottish cities with proportionately large taxi fleets and small PHV sectors there will be a rank and hail market for taxis in areas that simply do not exist in quantity controlled locations. Moreover, the evidence suggests that in those locations the vast majority of taxis also service the pre-booked market, and they are thus effectively hybrids of the taxis and PHVs found in cities with tight quantity controls. Claims that de-restriction means that any PHVs becoming taxis automatically leads to neglect of pre-booked work therefore simply do not hold water – taxis can serve the rank and hail, and pre-booked markets, which is more efficient for both the trade and consumers.


Okay, we now have the use of the word 'likely', you can use the word 'perhaps' & 'maybe' during the future, although the phrases 'I'm guessing here' & @we aint got a clue to be honest', would also fit. :wink:

As for the final part it seems okay for the document to use the above words when its in favour, but not okay to use them if it favours the opposite point of view. :wink:


Nothing can be forecasted with absolute certainty in these matters, so a bit of caution is often required.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:09 am 
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And since no one has refuted the forecasts, pehaps I was being over-cautious :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:11 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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The often gross distortion of the market which can result from the deficiencies inherent in the unmet demand test was recognised in a consultant’s report which was cited as evidence in the Wirral case. The report had found no unmet demand requiring the compulsory issuing of new licenses, but:

In this case, submits the defendant, the principal issue faced by the defendant was not 'unmet demand' in the Borough taken as a whole, but the distortion of the market identified in the Maunsell Report. That situation meant that only five so-called "honey pot" ranks out of 32 were fully served, with the result that there was an unduly high proportion of private hire vehicles (in the ratio of 10:1), and illegal plying for hire, as well as other problems.


A point worthy of contemplation

In Carlisle, we have 8 taxi ranks, only two are used by taxis, we are completely delimited, is there an unmet demand?


It may be a chicken and egg situation - if the taxis won't use it, the punters won't either, but I don't no Carlisle, so coulnd't really comment.

But if you put a taxi rank in someone's back garden, then it probably wouldn't be used much even if cars ranked there, to use an extreme example.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:16 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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At the more blatant end of the scale are techniques to skew the results of the surveys investigating any unmet demand evident at taxi ranks. These include:

Ensuring an abnormally high number of taxis are working while the surveys are being undertaken;

Ignoring pre-booked work and concentrating on serving the taxi ranks while they are being surveyed – as mentioned earlier, pre-booked work undertaken by taxis is not considered as regards meeting the unmet demand test;

Using communications equipment to direct taxis to the particular ranks actually being observed by the surveyors.


Is this the same trade that you stated claim to always be on the lookout for new drivers? Are they using magic to find the drivers as well :wink:

Come on, is this a conspiracy theory? The document would be better advised employing the services of Molder & Scully here :wink:


You've obviously never tried to manipulate an unmet demand survey captain :D

And let's face it, the things I mention are hardly rocket science.

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