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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:27 am 
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Sow the seeds of fear and doubt and there’s nothing more certain of paralysing the vote for independence. Salmond and Co. have a long way to go, and you can say what you like about Cameron and that nest of vipers down south, but they know how to play this game.

The public vote with their hearts and not their heads and even if you could convince people that independence was a good thing, fear and doubt will turn them into bystanders. :-|


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:39 am 
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the nest of vipers down south are no different to those in the north.....save for the accents, and that's what matters. Scottish people making Scottish mistakes on behalf of Scottish people.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:01 am 
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captain cab wrote:
the nest of vipers down south are no different to those in the north.....save for the accents, and that's what matters. Scottish people making Scottish mistakes on behalf of Scottish people.



And like they give a fuc* about the Scottish people :shock: :?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:26 pm 
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Remaining members of the European Union.

Maintaining the odious Monarchy that is the fundamental inequality in our morally bankrupt and corrupt political system based on the illusion of democracy.

Interest rates still set outwith the country.

Still part of NATO.

No real influence within the EU or UN.

And all controlled by a privileged clique which has control of the single Parliamentary chamber - no checks and no balances.

Not a lot expected to change is there?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Quote:
Even more so, you shouldn't just focus on the bits that suit your cause


In the same way that the SNP, Pro Indy's and every other Politician on the planet shouldn't do...But Do never the less.. #-o #-o

If we never focused on the bits that most suited each of as individuals and for which we perceive or believe as being most important to our individual needs or wants, then nothing would ever be done or achieved because we would all be walking blindly and unquestioningly into the same political abyss.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Only wee Eck could think he knows more about the workings and political machinations of the EU than the EU itself...it's just a shame he doesn't know what the majority of the Scottish people really want these days, he's lost touch, he's still surfing his electoral protest wave that accidentally left him and his cronies in power.

It's a case of "Ecks the Name and political Machinations my game" :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:47 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... g296lQvd9M

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Salmond should park his tank on the Brussels lawn
Iain MacWhirter
Thursday 13 December 2012
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... n.19658337

It recalled the BBC director general, George Entwistle, being jeered by MPs over the Newsnight/Savile affair.

John Swinney, the Scottish Finance Secretary, was ridiculed by the House of Lords economic committee on Tuesday for trying to argue that an independent Scotland would be able to remain in the EU because it would still be part of the UK when the negotiations took place. The "last refuge of the scoundrel" sneered one Peer. "Doesn't know what he's talking about," said another.

Their lordships' eyes rolled to the ceiling in mock amazement as a diffident Mr Swinney tried to argue that the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, had not said what he clearly had said in a letter to the committee. Namely, that after independence Scotland would become "a third country with respect to the EU" and that the various treaties "would no longer apply on its territory" and that the new entity would have to apply for membership "like any other state". The chairman, Lord McGregor, treated Mr Swinney as if he were a rather dim sixth former at a minor public school.

It wasn't really Mr Swinney's fault – the constitution and Europe aren't his brief after all. They are Nicola Sturgeon's. And the patronising peers, such as Lord Forsyth and Lord Lipsey, are of course political appointees and hardly independent authorities. Mr Swinney had been left dangerously exposed by his own party, which has tried to ignore this issue for far too long expecting it will go away. This won't do. You can't be the party of independence in Europe when the top guy in Europe is suggesting Scotland would be ejected from it.

Ms Sturgeon has been dragged kicking and screaming to give a statement on EU membership to Holyrood today, just as Alex Salmond was dragged to the chamber to explain the non-existent legal advice in October. This is undignified. No doubt she will insist the Barroso Barrier doesn't exist and he's just kidding, ha ha. But he isn't. Mr Barroso has chosen to get involved in this issue for his own political motives. Bureaucrats, like cushions, tend to show the imprint of the last person who sat on them. Mr Barroso is under pressure from other member states, such as Spain, who have their own separatist movements, not to say anything that might encourage secession.

The SNP should have challenged him on the membership issue back in September, when he first started comparing Scotland to a "new state" that would have to reapply. Scottish Government sources dismissed this at the time saying he didn't mean Scotland. Then Mr Salmond deployed tortuous constitutional logic to argue that, because the Scottish independence referendum is legal and because, under the Edinburgh Agreement, the UK Government has agreed to recognise the result, Scotland would remain a "succession state" and that EU treaties would still apply. Unfortunately, Mr Barroso does not agree.

Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon should there and then have booked a ticket on Ryanair and jetted across to the European Commission. They should have held a press conference to ask the president if he was seriously suggesting that, if Scotland were to become independent as the result of a legitimate democratic referendum, he would authorise the expulsion of 5.2 million EU citizens from the European Union. Could he explain the mechanism by which Scotland could be ejected, since there is no treaty covering such an eventuality. Since Scotland has been subject to European law now for 40 years how could those protections be removed by the whim of the Brussels Commission? In other words: no way Jose.

But the SNP doesn't seem to realise how serious this is, or perhaps it is the arrogance of power. All long-serving governments have a tendency to listen only to people who agree with them. The Scottish Government insists that, in the end, Brussels will see reason. Certainly, the idea that Scotland would actually be forced to leave the EU is so absurd that not even the SNP's most vehement critics, like Labour's Lord McFall, argue it. But it's no use just asserting this, or endlessly citing the views of sympathetic professors – the matter should have been addressed politically.

Mr Barroso is worried that, if he appears to endorse Scottish independence, he would be attacked by Tory ministers in Westminster for encouraging the break-up of Britain. And he's probably right. Imagine if the Commission president had said "we would welcome an independent Scotland as the 28th member of the European Union". Tory MPs would have been apoplectic at this latest Brussels conspiracy against Britain. The elephant in the room here is that David Cameron is already under intense pressure from figures like London Mayor Boris Johnson to hold a referendum on British membership of the EU after the next election. Indeed, it's not inconceivable that Scotland could be negotiating entry to the EU at the very moment England is negotiating its exit – which would be interesting.

The SNP has to reframe the entire argument. It has anyway been too uncritical of Europe, which is plunging half the eurozone into economic depression through inflexible application of monetary policy. By appearing to be humble supplicants at the EU tradesman's entrance, the SNP is only weakening its own bargaining position if Scotland votes Yes. Oil-rich Norway does pretty well outside the EU. The line should be that the dysfunctional European club would be lucky to have such a highly educated and prosperous country as Scotland with its oil and natural resources. I mean, where would Spain get its fish?

The correct way for the Commission to deal with a situation unprecedented in the EU treaties is surely to say that the status quo should be affirmed, ie that Scotland is in until it is out. Scotland would clearly have to negotiate its contribution to the EU budget, its relationship to treaties such as Shengen and its posture on the single currency. But the other new entity, the "Rest of the UK", would also have to conduct its own parallel negotiations on altering its contribution to the budget, and as a much-reduced country, its voting weight on the Council of Ministers. That's if England wants to stay in the EU.

As for Mr Barroso. It is time for Mr Salmond to park his ample derriere very firmly on the Brussels upholstery.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:48 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Salmond should park his tank on the Brussels lawn
Iain MacWhirter
Thursday 13 December 2012
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... n.19658337

It recalled the BBC director general, George Entwistle, being jeered by MPs over the Newsnight/Savile affair.

John Swinney, the Scottish Finance Secretary, was ridiculed by the House of Lords economic committee on Tuesday for trying to argue that an independent Scotland would be able to remain in the EU because it would still be part of the UK when the negotiations took place. The "last refuge of the scoundrel" sneered one Peer. "Doesn't know what he's talking about," said another.

Their lordships' eyes rolled to the ceiling in mock amazement as a diffident Mr Swinney tried to argue that the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, had not said what he clearly had said in a letter to the committee. Namely, that after independence Scotland would become "a third country with respect to the EU" and that the various treaties "would no longer apply on its territory" and that the new entity would have to apply for membership "like any other state". The chairman, Lord McGregor, treated Mr Swinney as if he were a rather dim sixth former at a minor public school.

It wasn't really Mr Swinney's fault – the constitution and Europe aren't his brief after all. They are Nicola Sturgeon's. And the patronising peers, such as Lord Forsyth and Lord Lipsey, are of course political appointees and hardly independent authorities. Mr Swinney had been left dangerously exposed by his own party, which has tried to ignore this issue for far too long expecting it will go away. This won't do. You can't be the party of independence in Europe when the top guy in Europe is suggesting Scotland would be ejected from it.

Ms Sturgeon has been dragged kicking and screaming to give a statement on EU membership to Holyrood today, just as Alex Salmond was dragged to the chamber to explain the non-existent legal advice in October. This is undignified. No doubt she will insist the Barroso Barrier doesn't exist and he's just kidding, ha ha. But he isn't. Mr Barroso has chosen to get involved in this issue for his own political motives. Bureaucrats, like cushions, tend to show the imprint of the last person who sat on them. Mr Barroso is under pressure from other member states, such as Spain, who have their own separatist movements, not to say anything that might encourage secession.

The SNP should have challenged him on the membership issue back in September, when he first started comparing Scotland to a "new state" that would have to reapply. Scottish Government sources dismissed this at the time saying he didn't mean Scotland. Then Mr Salmond deployed tortuous constitutional logic to argue that, because the Scottish independence referendum is legal and because, under the Edinburgh Agreement, the UK Government has agreed to recognise the result, Scotland would remain a "succession state" and that EU treaties would still apply. Unfortunately, Mr Barroso does not agree.

Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon should there and then have booked a ticket on Ryanair and jetted across to the European Commission. They should have held a press conference to ask the president if he was seriously suggesting that, if Scotland were to become independent as the result of a legitimate democratic referendum, he would authorise the expulsion of 5.2 million EU citizens from the European Union. Could he explain the mechanism by which Scotland could be ejected, since there is no treaty covering such an eventuality. Since Scotland has been subject to European law now for 40 years how could those protections be removed by the whim of the Brussels Commission? In other words: no way Jose.

But the SNP doesn't seem to realise how serious this is, or perhaps it is the arrogance of power. All long-serving governments have a tendency to listen only to people who agree with them. The Scottish Government insists that, in the end, Brussels will see reason. Certainly, the idea that Scotland would actually be forced to leave the EU is so absurd that not even the SNP's most vehement critics, like Labour's Lord McFall, argue it. But it's no use just asserting this, or endlessly citing the views of sympathetic professors – the matter should have been addressed politically.

Mr Barroso is worried that, if he appears to endorse Scottish independence, he would be attacked by Tory ministers in Westminster for encouraging the break-up of Britain. And he's probably right. Imagine if the Commission president had said "we would welcome an independent Scotland as the 28th member of the European Union". Tory MPs would have been apoplectic at this latest Brussels conspiracy against Britain. The elephant in the room here is that David Cameron is already under intense pressure from figures like London Mayor Boris Johnson to hold a referendum on British membership of the EU after the next election. Indeed, it's not inconceivable that Scotland could be negotiating entry to the EU at the very moment England is negotiating its exit – which would be interesting.

The SNP has to reframe the entire argument. It has anyway been too uncritical of Europe, which is plunging half the eurozone into economic depression through inflexible application of monetary policy. By appearing to be humble supplicants at the EU tradesman's entrance, the SNP is only weakening its own bargaining position if Scotland votes Yes. Oil-rich Norway does pretty well outside the EU. The line should be that the dysfunctional European club would be lucky to have such a highly educated and prosperous country as Scotland with its oil and natural resources. I mean, where would Spain get its fish?

The correct way for the Commission to deal with a situation unprecedented in the EU treaties is surely to say that the status quo should be affirmed, ie that Scotland is in until it is out. Scotland would clearly have to negotiate its contribution to the EU budget, its relationship to treaties such as Shengen and its posture on the single currency. But the other new entity, the "Rest of the UK", would also have to conduct its own parallel negotiations on altering its contribution to the budget, and as a much-reduced country, its voting weight on the Council of Ministers. That's if England wants to stay in the EU.

As for Mr Barroso. It is time for Mr Salmond to park his ample derriere very firmly on the Brussels upholstery.


There wont be any argument or serious debate from within the EU, they have Made it Crystal Clear that If you vote to leave a European member nation or state, then your out....thank god.

The EU high heid yins along with most Scots realise that wee Ecks has about as much chance of getting Independence as Jimmy Savile has of getting his Head stone back...Zilch!! They're not going to waste their valuable time and effort trying to appease some Pip Squeak politicians from Holyrood when they have another 500 million europeans to thrash and bully into shape.

Alex Salmond and his cronies might think they are big shot Ministers and National assets over here..but over there they are all absolute nobodies. #-o


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Scotland, independence and the EU: the Barroso intervention
Thursday, 13 December 2012 17:00

By Aidan O’Neill QC

The President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, has responded to an invitation from the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee for the European Commission to contribute to the committee’s inquiry into “The Economic Implications for the United Kingdom of Scottish Independence”.

Surprisingly perhaps, his response does not, however, deal with any economic issues should the 1707 Treaty of Union be dissolved and Scotland become an independent State, but rather with legal ones.

Mr. Barroso’s first degree is in law, and he undertook postgraduate studies in economics and in international relations. It is to be expected that his views will be legally informed and clearly reasoned. The relevant paragraphs of his letter to the House of Lords on the issue states as follows:

(1) “The EU is founded on the Treaties which apply only to the Member States who have agreed and ratified them.

(2) If part of the territory of a Member State would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the Treaties would no longer apply to that territory.

(3) In other words, a new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory.

(4) Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a member of the EU.

(5) If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously, an agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails.

(6) This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.”

While propositions (1), (4), (5), and (6) are undoubtedly correct, the claims made in statements (2) and (3) are perhaps more complex than Mr. Barroso’s brief account would indicate.

The EU Treaties have been concluded for an unlimited period – see Article 53 of the Treaty on the European Union (“TEU”). Indeed, until the insertion of a new Article 50 TEU by the 2007 Lisbon Treaty, the Treaties contained no provisions for the secession or unilateral withdrawal of a Member State from the EU. Article 50(3) TEU now provides that the Treaties shall cease to apply to a Member State from the date of entry into force of any withdrawal agreement; or failing which, two years from the date of notification of withdrawal has formally been given by the Member State to the European Council.

The only precedent for part of the territory of a Member State leaving the EU is the case of Greenland which in 1985, left the EU after negotiation and agreement among all the Member States resulting in a formal amendment of the Treaty. So, such precedents as exist would indicate that an existing territory within the European Union has to be negotiated out of the EU, rather than for there to be any immediate automatic cessation of the applicability of EU law within that territory on its secession from a Member State.

Further, Article 52(1) TEU specifies that the Treaty applies to “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. There is a respectable legal argument to be made that – given that Article 1 of the 1707 Articles of Union provides “that the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain” – the revocation of the British Union would mean not only independence for Scotland but also the dissolution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

If Barroso’s automaticity argument has any purchase, then it could be said that from a matter of a strict literalist reading of the Treaties – against the background of the constitutional history of the formation of the UK – a disunited Kingdom without Scotland would no longer be the Member State which originally signed up to the European Union and therefore the dissolution of the UK into separate States would result in none of the territory of the former United Kingdom remaining within the EU.

Normally in international relations, politics trumps law. Not so in the European Union however where the Court of Justice of the European Union has long made it clear that it alone (and not the Commission or the Member States) is the fundamental guardian and interpreter of the European Treaties. And the issue of whether an independent Scotland or the continuing UK remain members of the EU or have to reapply for membership affects not just states but individuals not least because, by virtue of Article 9 TEU, every national of a Member State is also an EU citizen.

The Grand Chamber CJEU decision in Rottmann v Bavaria shows that decisions concerning the continuing national status of Member State nationals fall within the ambit of EU law and the supervisory jurisdiction of the CJEU precisely because changes in individuals’ national status may impact upon their acquired EU law rights qua EU citizens.

Again, if the Barroso thesis is correct we may then be left with the paradoxical consequence that an independent Scotland would not be entitled to be accepted as a Member State of the EU, but all its (formerly British) nationals would continue to be EU citizens able to enjoy the protections and privileges conferred by EU law while their independent Government incurred none of the responsibilities. That might turn out to be for Scots – in the words of Candide – “the best of all possible worlds” but it is not perhaps a result which, for example, Spanish fishermen suddenly deprived of access to the newly exclusive territorial fishing grounds of an independent Scotland outside the EU would relish.

But if the better thesis is that an independent Scotland would have to negotiate its way either in or out of the European Union, then it may be that any referendum on Scottish independence should indeed contain a second question to guide its Government on this point: do you want an independent Scotland to be in, or out, of the EU?


http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/sc ... tervention

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Weird this..but I cant post a reply that Id like to on this post because it comes up with an error message everytime I try it... :sad:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:36 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Weird this..but I cant post a reply that Id like to on this post because it comes up with an error message everytime I try it... :sad:



Yep error 406 message I've had a a few times myself!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:40 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Weird this..but I cant post a reply that Id like to on this post because it comes up with an error message everytime I try it... :sad:



Yep error 406 message I've had a a few times myself!


Why would it do that, the really annoying part of it was it was nice, clean and without a single expletive in it...and worse still I was almost agreeing with Gus on something... :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:44 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Weird this..but I cant post a reply that Id like to on this post because it comes up with an error message everytime I try it... :sad:



Yep error 406 message I've had a a few times myself!


Mines throws this at me...I wonder if theres a trigger word in there that does it?

Not Acceptable

An appropriate representation of the requested resource /phpBB2/posting.php could not be found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the reques


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:20 pm 
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It's an internal server problem with the nuts and bolts of TDO.
Nothing to do with the content you are trying to post. Try posting again later.

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