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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Location: Hampshire (HC)
This was recently posted on our local HC & PH group:

A question.. Someone posted on a group recently about being a "helping hands". Part of the help was driving to and from the shops to help with shopping. There was also the comment, "cheaper than a taxi". With nothing better to do, I asked if they had 'Hire and Reward' insurance, to which they said yes.. Now for the question, does this mean they have to be plated, either HC or PV, or is there a way around the rules that allows you to have the insurance, and not the relevant licences from the council??


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:58 am 
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You can probably get whatever insurance that you want (or lie about having it) but that doesn't mean that you can carry passengers for hire or reward without the appropriate license.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:15 am 
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On my current car insurance I can carry passengers in connection with my business, but not for hire and reward. so I can carry a work colleague providing I don't charge them for it.

Having read through some of the case law Martin Allen has dug up in connection with the s19 minibus debacle, there is European case law going back to 1979 which in effect means that anything done for "fiscal activity" is what we call hire and reward. So all these voluntary car schemes where they are "cheaper than taxis" are in my view illegal if they are receiving any payment for carrying a passenger, "regardless of the status of the operator".

It's going to take a couple of brave licencing officers to take some cases to court which they would no doubt win.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:31 am 
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roythebus wrote:
On my current car insurance I can carry passengers in connection with my business, but not for hire and reward. so I can carry a work colleague providing I don't charge them for it.

Having read through some of the case law Martin Allen has dug up in connection with the s19 minibus debacle, there is European case law going back to 1979 which in effect means that anything done for "fiscal activity" is what we call hire and reward. So all these voluntary car schemes where they are "cheaper than taxis" are in my view illegal if they are receiving any payment for carrying a passenger, "regardless of the status of the operator".

It's going to take a couple of brave licencing officers to take some cases to court which they would no doubt win.



Prosecution of the voluntary car scheme operators should be the starting point as they are operatng an unlicensed service.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Location: Hampshire (HC)
I think that's my reading of it.

The voluntary car schemes are probably illegal but no LO wants to take enforcement action against what is probably a registered charity. I think the use of the term 'charity' is often stretching the point a bit in some of these cases.

Is anyone aware of any 'noises' that have been made by LAs towards this type of operation?


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:49 pm 
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cabbyman wrote:
I think that's my reading of it.

The voluntary car schemes are probably illegal but no LO wants to take enforcement action against what is probably a registered charity. I think the use of the term 'charity' is often stretching the point a bit in some of these cases.

Is anyone aware of any 'noises' that have been made by LAs towards this type of operation?



Is the voluteer ambulance scheme operated by individual Health Authorities a registered charity after all the volunteers are paid out of NHS funds which equates to virtually a TAXI fare and often above a TAXI fare.
They operate these schemes on a full time employment basis,


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:03 pm 
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In my view the NHS trust is therefore operating an unlicenced car hire service. I'd refer you to the Glockner Ambulanz case in the ECJ as this covers it quite adequately.

It is hire and reward or fiscal activity, regardless of the status of the operator.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:30 pm
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Location: 1066 Country
cabbyman wrote:
This was recently posted on our local HC & PH group:

A question.. Someone posted on a group recently about being a "helping hands". Part of the help was driving to and from the shops to help with shopping. There was also the comment, "cheaper than a taxi". With nothing better to do, I asked if they had 'Hire and Reward' insurance, to which they said yes.. Now for the question, does this mean they have to be plated, either HC or PV, or is there a way around the rules that allows you to have the insurance, and not the relevant licences from the council??

If they have got 'hire and reward' insurance then they should be licensed.

Why would one have such insurance if they weren't out to make a profit?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:27 am 
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cabbyman wrote:
I think that's my reading of it.

The voluntary car schemes are probably illegal but no LO wants to take enforcement action against what is probably a registered charity. I think the use of the term 'charity' is often stretching the point a bit in some of these cases.

Is anyone aware of any 'noises' that have been made by LAs towards this type of operation?

Leicestershire County Council have recently asked all operators of vehicles up to 8 passengers to provide a copy of their operators license.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:31 am 
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Sussex wrote:
If they have got 'hire and reward' insurance then they should be licensed.

Why would one have such insurance if they weren't out to make a profit?


Would thus be interesting to know the insurance provider's view on why they're willing to insure the vehicle without a license.

Presumably the insurance company thinks they're exempt.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:27 am 
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StuartW wrote:
Sussex wrote:
If they have got 'hire and reward' insurance then they should be licensed.

Why would one have such insurance if they weren't out to make a profit?


Would thus be interesting to know the insurance provider's view on why they're willing to insure the vehicle without a license.

Presumably the insurance company thinks they're exempt.

I don't recall having to PROOVE that our vehicles were licensed to get my hire and reward insurance this year. I just had to declare that they were licensed.

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old fart with no heart


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:08 am 
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grandad wrote:
I don't recall having to PROOVE that our vehicles were licensed to get my hire and reward insurance this year. I just had to declare that they were licensed.

Your insurance Company didn't want copies of the Hackney (or PH) Vehicle licence?
Whoever I insure with want it and a raft of other documents.
When a Bus ran into the back of my vehicle the other day, a load more copies were needed even though my Insurers already had them.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:56 pm
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Chris the Fish wrote:
grandad wrote:
I don't recall having to PROOVE that our vehicles were licensed to get my hire and reward insurance this year. I just had to declare that they were licensed.

Your insurance Company didn't want copies of the Hackney (or PH) Vehicle licence?
Whoever I insure with want it and a raft of other documents.
When a Bus ran into the back of my vehicle the other day, a load more copies were needed even though my Insurers already had them.



I have to give my insurers a copy of my drivers license,TAXI license and TAXI drivers license at every renewal.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Chris the Fish wrote:
grandad wrote:
I don't recall having to PROOVE that our vehicles were licensed to get my hire and reward insurance this year. I just had to declare that they were licensed.

Your insurance Company didn't want copies of the Hackney (or PH) Vehicle licence?
Whoever I insure with want it and a raft of other documents.
When a Bus ran into the back of my vehicle the other day, a load more copies were needed even though my Insurers already had them.

Not the company I am with this year. Previous company's have asked for ALL licernses and permission to check drivers licenses.

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Grandad,
old fart with no heart


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:56 pm
Posts: 1311
grandad wrote:
Chris the Fish wrote:
grandad wrote:
I don't recall having to PROOVE that our vehicles were licensed to get my hire and reward insurance this year. I just had to declare that they were licensed.

Your insurance Company didn't want copies of the Hackney (or PH) Vehicle licence?
Whoever I insure with want it and a raft of other documents.
When a Bus ran into the back of my vehicle the other day, a load more copies were needed even though my Insurers already had them.

Not the company I am with this year. Previous company's have asked for ALL licernses and permission to check drivers licenses.



Might be a micky mouse outfit.


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