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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
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I suppose you will be telling us next that because it is being used for SDP that the wife/partner can drive it without having a badge.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:51 pm 
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grandad wrote:
I suppose you will be telling us next that because it is being used for SDP that the wife/partner can drive it without having a badge.


Not sure who you're replying to but, as I said earlier, my own view is that you can't have a hard and fast distinction between using vehicle as an HC or PHV commercially, and using it privately. Take the hard and fast distinction to its logical conclusion and you wouldn't be able to use a licenced vehicle privately at all.

So although the requirement for a badged driver and to keep plates attached maybe quite clear cut, not so sure about other aspects like seating, meters and driver conduct.

For what it's worth, I'm sure that in Scotland the requirement for a badged driver isn't quite so clear cut - can't remember where now, but recall reading that police in Aberdeen turned a blind eye to spouse use of car - not sure precisely what the law is, but think it's just one of these grey areas that the authorities turn a blind eye to, and the law would really need clarifying in court, but it's all just swept under the carpet.

Which brings us on, obviously, to the can of worms about garage mechanics and even council employees road testing HCs and PHVs.

Recall at least one big thread on here about mechanics road testing cars, and not sure if it was ever properly resolved.

But up here must be very few licenced cars that haven't been road tested by a mechanic without a badge, and here the council's employees drive the car onto the public roads to test the meter. The latter may have a badge, but I'm not sure, but pretty sure garage mechanics don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:10 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
grandad wrote:
I suppose you will be telling us next that because it is being used for SDP that the wife/partner can drive it without having a badge.


Not sure who you're replying to but, as I said earlier, my own view is that you can't have a hard and fast distinction between using vehicle as an HC or PHV commercially, and using it privately. Take the hard and fast distinction to its logical conclusion and you wouldn't be able to use a licenced vehicle privately at all.

So although the requirement for a badged driver and to keep plates attached maybe quite clear cut, not so sure about other aspects like seating, meters and driver conduct.

For what it's worth, I'm sure that in Scotland the requirement for a badged driver isn't quite so clear cut - can't remember where now, but recall reading that police in Aberdeen turned a blind eye to spouse use of car - not sure precisely what the law is, but think it's just one of these grey areas that the authorities turn a blind eye to, and the law would really need clarifying in court, but it's all just swept under the carpet.

Which brings us on, obviously, to the can of worms about garage mechanics and even council employees road testing HCs and PHVs.

Recall at least one big thread on here about mechanics road testing cars, and not sure if it was ever properly resolved.

But up here must be very few licenced cars that haven't been road tested by a mechanic without a badge, and here the council's employees drive the car onto the public roads to test the meter. The latter may have a badge, but I'm not sure, but pretty sure garage mechanics don't.


In England and wales a mechanic can road test a TAXI(hackney carriage) without obtaining a drivers license from the Council,the same rules do not apply to a private hire vehicle.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:08 am 
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Which maybe illustrates the slightly illogical nature of your argument - if it was always and absolutely an HC (or PHV) then you wouldn't be able to use it privately at all.

I'm not sure that follows.

My view if that using a hackney carriage privately is using a hackney carriage without charge, rather than using a hackney carriage without being hired first.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:33 pm 
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All these arguments have been made on here before if anyone cares to look through the archives.

The law is once a licenced vehicle always a licenced vehicle until it has been withdrawn from service. That applies to HC/PHV/PSV and lorries. You'll usually find your insurance does not cover "garage use" so the garage's own insurance will cover the car while it's in their custody for repairs and maintenance. While it's there it cannot be used as a taxi/phv; the mechanic testing it probably doesn't have a HC/phv licence and is not insured to use it for those purposes. The law is slightly different for PSV/lorries that the mechanic must have the relevant licence but does not need the driver CPC as he is not carrying passengers for hire and reward.

The argument for hc/phv cars only being driven by licenced hc/phv drivers at all times is an old one. remember the Pink Ladies case? there's been a number of cases on here where "the mrs covered the school run in my phc because I was ill but I didn't charge for it, therefore it's not hire and rewards". Yeah ok, heard it all before. The car was being used for the benefit of the operator regardless.

As for the case of the 3 front seats, some authorities will issue licences, some won't if there's deemed to be not enough "personal space" between the gearstick and the passenger's knees. This is why we need national standards for the industry. So, if you have 3 people in the front, how is anyone supposed to know if you're using the vehicle for H&R or privately? they don't, and that may not be proven until the driver has been nicked and found guilty or not via a court case.

There's mention again of insurance not being valid. If you've paid your premium, your 3rd party insurance should always cover your car providing you keep to your part of the contract. I'd suggest it's a misbelief that your insurance is invalid if you're insured to carry 9 people privately, much the same as your insurance is not automatically invalid if you're a phv caught for touting.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 pm
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Just phoned InsureTaxi and they say I am insured to take 8(including me) on S+D ,just waiting for my LA to get in touch,its too technical for the lady on the phone so she has asked me to email them.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:23 pm 
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Location: A City near Birmingham
rayggb wrote:
My friend who is a newbie to the trade has a ford custom with 8 seats,he is a hackney like me.we are both licenced to carry 6 people,



so licensing should insist the excess seats are removed

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:30 pm 
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wannabeeahack wrote:
rayggb wrote:
My friend who is a newbie to the trade has a ford custom with 8 seats,he is a hackney like me.we are both licenced to carry 6 people,



so licensing should insist the excess seats are removed


Might not be possible, depending on the reason for the restriction. Sure there was a Ford Escort in Fife once upon a time, which didn't meet the council's back-seat width specification, so they would only plate it for two passengers in the back.

Didn't last long as a cab, apparently :-s


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:03 pm 
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Just had confirmation from the boss in the licensing office that it's legal for hack or PH to have more than it is licenced for if it is s+d but they may stop you and check that it is for such.sheffied policy is to not allow a paying passenger to sit in front with you,which has always been the case.he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.All as I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:58 am 
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rayggb wrote:
Just had confirmation from the boss in the licensing office that it's legal for hack or PH to have more than it is licenced for if it is s+d but they may stop you and check that it is for such.sheffied policy is to not allow a paying passenger to sit in front with you,which has always been the case.he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.All as I thought.



If you are licensed for x number of passengers in a TAXI(hackney carriage) that is the maximum you are allowed yo carry whether they are fare paying or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:43 am 
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rayggb wrote:
he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.

Is that the correct name for the group? If it is, I haven't heard of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:47 am 
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rayggb wrote:
Just had confirmation from the boss in the licensing office that it's legal for hack or PH to have more than it is licenced for if it is s+d but they may stop you and check that it is for such.sheffied policy is to not allow a paying passenger to sit in front with you,which has always been the case.he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.All as I thought.

Well if you are happy with that then so be it. I hope you never have an accident with more passengers in the car than your license permits and you have to rely on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:47 am 
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No you are wrong heathcote, as stated above you can carry more if it's S+D+P . I have it in writing (email ).


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:52 am 
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rayggb wrote:
No you are wrong heathcote, as stated above you can carry more if it's S+D+P . I have it in writing (email ).
And Neville Chamberlain had it in writing that Germany would not invade Poland.
Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Location: A City near Birmingham
rayggb wrote:
No you are wrong heathcote, as stated above you can carry more if it's S+D+P . I have it in writing (email ).



2am outside a pub... "aw come on mate ya fecker, theres an empty seat there, ill give yous an extra quid"

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