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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:20 pm 
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187ums wrote:
no restricting supply means that the market is not flooded and becomes a free for all --

"free for all" - anyone who wants a plate can have one, regardless of work.

What you mean like the thriving PH trade that has taken large chunks out of what was taxi work? :?

As for the 'free for all' in the cab trade, isn't that the case now? Providing of course you have enough money to buy one that is. :-$

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:21 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
But how would increased availability benifit consumers?

Because then they wont get the bus or walk home. ](*,)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:54 pm 
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187ums wrote:
no restricting supply means that the market is not flooded and becomes a free for all --

"free for all" - anyone who wants a plate can have one, regardless of work.


Well anyone can have a taxi badge in restricted areas anyway, so don't forget it's a free for all as regards drivers, but of course if the plateholders benefit from this free for all then that's OK, innit?

And there's no restriction on vehicle numbers in London, yet the black cab drivers seem to do OK - they could buy your £70k plate in a year :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:56 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
But how would increased availability benifit consumers? By having the choice of a hundred taxis on a rank rather than twenty?


Or maybe having 20 customers queueing at the rank rather than 100? :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:01 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
[ "Consumer choice" is about lower fares in Irish OfTspeak, I mean he would hardly believe HIGHER fares, would be "of benefit to the consumer," would he? :? :? :? :? :?


With respect jimbo, you're just reading your own wild interpretation into something - choice is a very different concept to pricing.

It's all about striking the right balance between over/undersupply. After all, a few years ago Mr Fingleton did say:

If fares are too low, there will not be enough taxis. If fares are too high, there will be too many idle taxis. Setting the wrong fare, whether too high or too low, damages both consumers and suppliers.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
jimbo wrote:
But how would increased availability benifit consumers?

Because then they wont get the bus or walk home. ](*,)


So, at 1am this morning, when I was waiting on the rank for twenty minutes, front car, in a queue of a dozen or more cabs, when the buses have stoped running, what was the lack of customers due to? A lack of availability? How would the punter who did get in, eventually, have "benefited" from their being 2 dozen or three dozen, cabs in line, only by trying to haggle, which they did, (I don't) but they used me anyway. Fares to high? No, a little lower than Eastbourne actually. Outnumbered by PH? Yes, but the PH drivers who have a moderate understanding of english comprehension tell me they are struggling, and some are really struggling. After nearly ten years of labour we are tailspinning into reccession, unemployment up, diesel up, gas up, electric up, council tax up, and punters out, down, down, down.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:51 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
So, at 1am this morning, when I was waiting on the rank for twenty minutes, front car, in a queue of a dozen or more cabs, when the buses have stoped running, what was the lack of customers due to? A lack of availability?

A case of customers in your manor deciding years ago that PH is the way forward, or the way home.

Too late for you now, you are doomed. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:26 pm 
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187ums wrote:
and lets remind him about his fiasco in dublin


It has been said many times on here, that Fingleton wasn't responsible for the removal of quantity controls in Dublin. The reason why Dublin is in such a mess is because they had no quality controls whatsoever on vehicles or drivers when the Dublin High court gave its decision in favour of the applicants Humphrey et al.

The blame for having no quality controls in place lies fairly and squarely at the door of those responsible for licensing.

A new bill has just been passed which will undoubtedly remedy some of the past mistakes but don't go blaming Fingleton for the mess in Dublin.

Here's a reminder of all those bodies the case was aimed at, just in case it has slipped your memory.

CHRISTOPHER HUMPHREY, TONY DOYLE, THOMAS O'CONNOR AND KEVIN BRADY

APPLICANTS

V

THE MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THE MINISTER OF STATE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, IRELAND, TILE ATTORNEY GENERAL, DUNDALK URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE, LORD MAYOR ALDERMEN AND BURGESSES OF THE CITY OF DUBLIN THE NATIONAL TAXI DRIVERS UNION AND THOMAS GORMAN (IN HIS REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS GENERAL SECRETARY OF THE UNION) (JOINED BY ORDER)

RESPONDENTS



One final point? You may wish to recall the words of the Learned Judge Murphy, who said.

"A quantitative restriction not alone affects the rights of citizens to work in an industry for which they may be qualified but it also manifestly affects the right of the public to the services of taxis and, indeed, restricts the development of the taxi industry itself."

Regulations that restrict the number of public hire vehicles "contradict the very concept of public service". It was, of course, open to the relevant authority to insist on quality as the base or threshold requirement in relation to a vehicle licence as well as a driver's licence.


.................................................................


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:33 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
jimbo wrote:
So, at 1am this morning, when I was waiting on the rank for twenty minutes, front car, in a queue of a dozen or more cabs, when the buses have stoped running, what was the lack of customers due to? A lack of availability?

A case of customers in your manor deciding years ago that PH is the way forward, or the way home.

Too late for you now, you are doomed. :wink:


Not so, and not likely. PH is over supplied, and will suffer the consequences. I will soon be able to report the fall of one of the "big three" More and more PH drivers giving up, snatchbacks of cars on credit. The joy of picking up a fare off the station and taking him to the home of a PH driver to recover a "55" Skoda. (probably buggered anyway) Like Gloria Gaynor, I will survive. :lol: :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:42 am 
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jimbo wrote:
Yes, but the PH drivers who have a moderate understanding of english comprehension tell me they are struggling, and some are really struggling. After nearly ten years of labour we are tailspinning into reccession, unemployment up, diesel up, gas up, electric up, council tax up, and punters out, down, down, down.


Well whatever way the microeconomics of the trade is regulated, it's certainly impossible to inlfuence the macro side :?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:19 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
[ but the PH drivers who have a moderate understanding of english comprehension tell me they are struggling



Would you like some more?

I'll tell the drivers of Harringey cars and 'Kwick' Of Hackney Wick, theres money to be made in East Anglia. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:23 pm 
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TDO wrote:
jimbo wrote:
Yes, but the PH drivers who have a moderate understanding of english comprehension tell me they are struggling, and some are really struggling. After nearly ten years of labour we are tailspinning into reccession, unemployment up, diesel up, gas up, electric up, council tax up, and punters out, down, down, down.


Well whatever way the microeconomics of the trade is regulated, it's certainly impossible to inlfuence the macro side :?


I think you are being overly simplistic here, TDO, with the above statement.

After all, one of the economists favourite conceits is the "lump of labour fallacy", which is rooted in the proposition that there is a fixed amount of work to be done in an economy- a "lump" of labour-which can be shared out in different ways to create fewer or more jobs. If,goes the argument, people worked 10% fewer hours then employers would have to hire more employees, and unemployment would shrink. The notion was behind the French "35-hour week" in a vain attempt to curb unemployment. The proposition is "fallacious"because,quite simply, dynamic economies do not respond like this. Shorter hours mean higher unit costs, (unless there are pay cuts), which undermine competetiveness and growth potential. This, in turn, can reduce the demand for labour and lead to higher unemployment.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:14 pm 
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I'm a bit confused here Jimbo - I said it was impossible to influence the macro side of the economy (from the taxi regulation perspective, at least), then you say I'm being over-simplistic, then you make a statement that seems to agree with what I said?

And I'm not really sure what relevance the 'lump of labour' fallacy has to the trade anyway, or am I missing something?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:18 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
The proposition is "fallacious"because,quite simply, dynamic economies do not respond like this. Shorter hours mean higher unit costs, (unless there are pay cuts), which undermine competetiveness and growth potential. This, in turn, can reduce the demand for labour and lead to higher unemployment.


While there's some truth in what you say, how do you know that the detriments of the French policy outweigh the benefits?

In the last sentence, for example, you don't even use the word 'will', you use 'can', which suggests you are not even certain about your own proposition.

OK, so assuming the detriments to the French policy, what about reduced unemployment benefits and thus taxation, for example, which would in turn stimulate growth?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:16 pm 
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TDO wrote:
jimbo wrote:
The proposition is "fallacious"because,quite simply, dynamic economies do not respond like this. Shorter hours mean higher unit costs, (unless there are pay cuts), which undermine competetiveness and growth potential. This, in turn, can reduce the demand for labour and lead to higher unemployment.


While there's some truth in what you say, how do you know that the detriments of the French policy outweigh the benefits?

In the last sentence, for example, you don't even use the word 'will', you use 'can', which suggests you are not even certain about your own proposition.

OK, so assuming the detriments to the French policy, what about reduced unemployment benefits and thus taxation, for example, which would in turn stimulate growth?


Well, I'm glad you asked me that.

May I suggest there are two fallacies of similar ilk that beset the current debate over taxation and public spending?
The first I shall call the "lump of tax revenue fallacy", which is based on the notion that changes in tax rates have absolutely no impact on individual or business behaviour and, hence, on the arithmatic link between tax rates and revenue. Given certain taxrates, there will be a "lump" of tax revenue.In a crude example, cutting income tax rates by 10% will result in a 10% reduction in revenue. But tax changes have significant "dynamic" impacts on individual and business behaviour and, hence, revenues. They can crucially influence investment decisions, how much people work and save, or whether businesses move their operations overseas to avoid confiscatory tax rates. All these decisions will have major knock on effects for the overall ability of the economy to grow-and thus generate tax revenue. The static "lump of tax revenue" notion, which crucially ignores these dynamic effects of tax changes, is, therefore, "fallacious". Significantly, it completely fails to allow for the proven fact that judicious tax cuts can stimulate growth and employment and, hence, revenues.
Even though the treasury uses their sophisticated economic model for calculating the effects of tax changes on revenues, including a number of economic variables such as prices,earnings and consumers' expenditure, their calculations do not make any allowance for changes in the taxpayers' behaviour. The calculations are therefore, essentially "static" in nature. This is clearly a major shortcoming and one the treasury should be urgently addressing- not least of all because their forcasting record for tax revenues and, hence, borrowing over the past five to six years has been abysmal despite a reasonable, though far from perfect,record on forcasting the economy as a whole. In his 2001 budget, the chancellor forecast total borrowing of £12 billion for the six financial years 2000-01 to 2005-06. Alas, the total borrowing over this period will turn out to be £120 billion, despite an extra £8 billion of NIC's revenue each year since 2003-04, with the discrepancy overwhelmingly reflecting deficient revenue. Tax revenues have dramatically undershot. This is poor forecasting on a heroic scale. Doubtless, there are several reasons for the poor forecasts. But surely, one reason is the treasury's failure to recognise the ways in which people and businesses react to tax changes.
My second fallacy is the "lump public services fallacy". This is based on the idea that there isarelationship between public spending and public services output. Spend the money, which the Chancellor will insist on calling "investment", and, hey presto, there will be a "lump" of "high quality" services. This flawed idea has undoubtedly been behind the Chancellor's monumental increase in public spending since 2000-01 in order to provide the nation with "world-class" services. Moreover under this mechanistic thinking, if public spending is cut by 5%, then services will be cut by 5%. The notion that better public services, following judicious reforms, can be delivered with less money, is alien. But it is now quite clear that the Chancellor's big-spending gamble is fundamentally flawed. Public sector productivity is falling, public sector waste is growing and the public services remain unsatisfactory. The taxpayersalliance recently estimated that the Government wastes £82 billion annually of hhardworing taxpayers money. The Government has to date, successfully spun the line that lower tax rates inevitably lead to lower tax revenues which, in turn, mean slower public spending growth and, therefore, worse public services. This is nonsense.Lower tax rates will stimulate revenues which, given sensible reforms, could finance much needed improvements in the public services.


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