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Skull
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:05 am 
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stu wrote:
TDO wrote:
JD wrote:

Those who believe in freedom of choice should act responsibly and If they wish to continue supporting and driving LTI vehicles then all well and good. It is not however up to them to tell others what they can or cannot drive, just because they themselves don't like the alternatives.



I suspect it's less about choice of vehicle per se than maintaining the status quo/fear of change and how that would impact on the plate cartel - ie some kind of group behaviour thingy that stu can probably provide a quote about.

Of course, linking vehicle choice with the plate issue may not be necessarly explicit and actively thought about, instead it might be tacit and existing only in the subconscious.

But it essentially all comes down to cartel/cartel-like behaviour.



Symptoms of Groupthink



Rationalization:
This is when team members convince themselves that despite evidence to the contrary, the decision or alternative being presented is the best one.
“Those other people don’t agree with us because they haven’t researched the problem as extensively as we have.”



Peer Pressure:
When a team member expresses an opposing opinion or questions the rationale behind a decision, the rest of the team members work together to pressure or penalize that person into compliance.
“Well if you really feel that we’re making a mistake you can always leave the team.”



Complacency:
After a few successes, the group begins to feel like any decision they make is the right one because there is no disagreement from any source.

“Our track record speaks for itself. We are unstoppable!”



Moral High Ground:
Each member of the group views him or herself as moral: The combination of moral minds is therefore thought not to be likely to make a poor or immoral decision. When morality is used as a basis for decision-making, the pressure to conform is even greater because no individual wants to be perceived as immoral.
“We all know what is right and wrong, and this is definitely right.”



Stereotyping:
As the group becomes more uniform in their views, they begin to see outsiders as possessing a different and inferior set of morals and characteristics from themselves. These perceived negative characteristics are then used to discredit the opposition.
“Lawyers will find any excuse to argue, even when the facts are clearly against them.”



Censorship:
Members censor their opinions in order to conform.
“If everyone else agrees then my thoughts to the contrary must be wrong.”



Information that is gathered is censored so that it also conforms to, or supports the chosen decision or alternative.
“Don’t listen to that nonsense, they don’t have a clue about what is really going on.”



Illusion of Unanimity:
Because no one speaks out, everyone in the group feels the group’s decision is unanimous. This is what feeds the Groupthink and causes it to spiral out of control.
“I see we all agree so it’s decided then.”




Nae problem Dusty :lol:




:roll:

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skippy41
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:11 am 
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How many brown envelopes has ECC received from LTI for not letting the E7 on the road?????
Why has ECC not been taken to the courts about this blatant discrimination and freedom of choice
You should lodge an appeal and stop any more plates being handed out to owners of the TX until ECC give the go ahead and licence the E7
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alan G
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:51 am 
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JD wrote:
Being a person who believes in freedom of choice I find it hard to agree with anyone who seeks to deny others the freedom of the right to choose what is in their own best interest.

If the decision was left to Mr Gladstone there is no doubt he would conclude that his preference overrides that of any other, even though his sole belief is based on the fact that one vehicle can out-perform another when performing a U turn?

We know that LTI has a very strong lobby in the Taxi Trade but do we really need drivers telling other drivers what they can and cannot do? Personally I can understand the misgivings in the E7 but it doesn't really concern me because I may not be the person buying the vehicle.

What does concern me is the fact that every owner should have the right to choose which vehicle they buy? Mr Gladstone and others wish to deprive owners of that right even though it is no business of theirs? If he or they think it is their business then perhaps they can tell us the reasons why?

Those who believe in freedom of choice should act responsibly and If they wish to continue supporting and driving LTI vehicles then all well and good. It is not however up to them to tell others what they can or cannot drive, just because they themselves don't like the alternatives.

Regards

JD


I won't hold my breath waiting for your apology, but sadly you are wrong yet again.
Apart from the fact that I did not pen the content of the page, I, unlike you, do not try to impose MY views on others by presenting them as fact.

Will you admit to yet another wrong presumption? I very much doubt it, as I don't believe that you are man enough to do so.

There is much more to the arguments both for and against the retention of the turning circle than it being a matter of choice being denied but I suspect that you know that.

I have no doubt that the usual suspects will now jump in with their helpings of claptrap and support "your cause" and decry those who can actually see the bigger picture.
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JD
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:54 am 
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alan G wrote:


I won't hold my breath waiting for your apology, but sadly you are wrong yet again.
Apart from the fact that I did not pen the content of the page, I, unlike you, do not try to impose MY views on others by presenting them as fact.

Will you admit to yet another wrong presumption? I very much doubt it, as I don't believe that you are man enough to do so.

There is much more to the arguments both for and against the retention of the turning circle than it being a matter of choice being denied but I suspect that you know that.

I have no doubt that the usual suspects will now jump in with their helpings of claptrap and support "your cause" and decry those who can actually see the bigger picture.


I'll let others decide on your interference in choice by publishing here what you wrote on your website, if thats alright with you?

For some reason you wish to deny others a choice of vehicle but for what reason you haven't said? You have the opportunity to tell the drivers and public of Edinburgh why Alan Gladstone doesn't want them to have a choice of vehicle beyond the type that already exist? If you write comment on your website surely you stand by it, if you are now saying you don't stand by it then by all means you have a platform on your own site or on TDO, in which to say so?

I'll ask you these questions Mr Gladstone are you in favour of allowing vehicles on the streets of Edninburgh that don't comply with the turning circle condition? Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

JD

Mr Gladstones comment on the issue of the E7 taken from his website with his kind permission.
.....................................................................................

The Case for Vehicle Choice

The E7 Debacle

The City of Edinburgh Council meets on June 1st to decide whether to allow an alternative vehicle type on our streets to operate as a taxi. I and some colleagues have been canvassing opinion on the ranks for some time and now would like to hear your views.

Fastblacks does not believe that a satisfactory case has been offered to admit these vehicles and retention of the tight turning circle is vital. The Buchanan report is fatally flawed in many of the conclusions drawn and opinions offered. Taxis operate 24 hours a day so, over a year, they operate in darkness for 50% of the time, so how can colour be considered an effective means of identifying taxis?

The safety factors regarding the turning circle are misunderstood by the report. If 2 taxis are cruising in, say Nicolson Street, and a hail is made from the opposite side of the road, would an E7 disregard the fare, knowing the taxi behind was a TX, because he would have to execute a 3 point turn, or would he attempt the maneouvre, thus causing disruption to traffic flow in both directions for longer than is necessary?

Given a choice of a u-turn or 3 point turn (BOTH being properly executed) the passenger is exposed to danger for a far shorter period with the U-turn, contrary to the biased way that this scenario is presented in Buchanan. The Safety factor lies with the driver NOT the vehicle.

At present, out of 967 drivers consulted, 61 do not regard the turning circle as vital!!

However, to complete our information, please feel free to send us your views on this using our online form link.
........................................................................................
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alan G
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:43 am 
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JD wrote:
alan G wrote:


I won't hold my breath waiting for your apology, but sadly you are wrong yet again.
Apart from the fact that I did not pen the content of the page, I, unlike you, do not try to impose MY views on others by presenting them as fact.

Will you admit to yet another wrong presumption? I very much doubt it, as I don't believe that you are man enough to do so.

There is much more to the arguments both for and against the retention of the turning circle than it being a matter of choice being denied but I suspect that you know that.

I have no doubt that the usual suspects will now jump in with their helpings of claptrap and support "your cause" and decry those who can actually see the bigger picture.


I'll let others decide on your interference in choice by publishing here what you wrote on your website, if thats alright with you?

For some reason you wish to deny others a choice of vehicle but for what reason you haven't said? You have the opportunity to tell the drivers and public of Edinburgh why Alan Gladstone doesn't want them to have a choice of vehicle beyond the type that already exist? If you write comment on your website surely you stand by it, if you are now saying you don't stand by it then by all means you have a platform on your own site or on TDO, in which to say so?

I'll ask you these questions Mr Gladstone are you in favour of allowing vehicles on the streets of Edninburgh that don't comply with the turning circle condition? Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

JD

Mr Gladstones comment on the issue of the E7 taken from his website with his kind permission.
.....................................................................................

The Case for Vehicle Choice

The E7 Debacle

The City of Edinburgh Council meets on June 1st to decide whether to allow an alternative vehicle type on our streets to operate as a taxi. I and some colleagues have been canvassing opinion on the ranks for some time and now would like to hear your views.

Fastblacks does not believe that a satisfactory case has been offered to admit these vehicles and retention of the tight turning circle is vital. The Buchanan report is fatally flawed in many of the conclusions drawn and opinions offered. Taxis operate 24 hours a day so, over a year, they operate in darkness for 50% of the time, so how can colour be considered an effective means of identifying taxis?

The safety factors regarding the turning circle are misunderstood by the report. If 2 taxis are cruising in, say Nicolson Street, and a hail is made from the opposite side of the road, would an E7 disregard the fare, knowing the taxi behind was a TX, because he would have to execute a 3 point turn, or would he attempt the maneouvre, thus causing disruption to traffic flow in both directions for longer than is necessary?

Given a choice of a u-turn or 3 point turn (BOTH being properly executed) the passenger is exposed to danger for a far shorter period with the U-turn, contrary to the biased way that this scenario is presented in Buchanan. The Safety factor lies with the driver NOT the vehicle.

At present, out of 967 drivers consulted, 61 do not regard the turning circle as vital!!

However, to complete our information, please feel free to send us your views on this using our online form link.
........................................................................................


First point here is that you have told a deliberate lie. you have never asked for, nor been given permission to, reproduce anything by anyone connected with www.fastblacks.com. Why do you claim that you have?

Despite being told that I did not pen the item in question, you ignore that fact. Why? Is it another case of "never let the truth get in the way of your opinion?"

Will the administrator of this site correct and/or remove your lies? Or will your "old pals" act overrule common decency?

I freely admit that I, personally, think that retention of the turning circle requirement in Edinburgh is vital, I also regard my right to voice my opinion as vital too.

If my support for this issue is regarded as interference "in the decision making of the council on such a matter" what the hell is your constant interference in licensing issues in areas about which you know precious little and care even less?
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JD
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:11 pm 
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alan G wrote:
"JD Wrote"


I'll let others decide on your interference in choice by publishing here what you wrote on your website, if that's all right with you?

For some reason you wish to deny others a choice of vehicle but for what reason you haven't said? You have the opportunity to tell the drivers and public of Edinburgh why Alan Gladstone doesn't want them to have a choice of vehicle beyond the type that already exist? If you write comment on your website surely you stand by it, if you are now saying you don't stand by it then by all means you have a platform on your own site or on TDO, in which to say so?

I'll ask you these questions Mr Gladstone are you in favour of allowing vehicles on the streets of Edinburgh that don't comply with the turning circle condition? Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

JD

Mr Gladstones comments on the issue of the E7 taken from his website with his kind permission.
.....................................................................................

The Case for Vehicle Choice


The E7 Debacle

The City of Edinburgh Council meets on June 1st to decide whether to allow an alternative vehicle type on our streets to operate as a taxi. I and some colleagues have been canvassing opinion on the ranks for some time and now would like to hear your views.

Fastblacks does not believe that a satisfactory case has been offered to admit these vehicles and retention of the tight turning circle is vital. The Buchanan report is fatally flawed in many of the conclusions drawn and opinions offered. Taxis operate 24 hours a day so, over a year, they operate in darkness for 50% of the time, so how can colour be considered an effective means of identifying taxis?

The safety factors regarding the turning circle are misunderstood by the report. If 2 taxis are cruising in, say Nicolson Street, and a hail is made from the opposite side of the road, would an E7 disregard the fare, knowing the taxi behind was a TX, because he would have to execute a 3 point turn, or would he attempt the maneouvre, thus causing disruption to traffic flow in both directions for longer than is necessary?

Given a choice of a u-turn or 3 point turn (BOTH being properly executed) the passenger is exposed to danger for a far shorter period with the U-turn, contrary to the biased way that this scenario is presented in Buchanan. The Safety factor lies with the driver NOT the vehicle.

At present, out of 967 drivers consulted, 61 do not regard the turning circle as vital!!

However, to complete our information, please feel free to send us your views on this using our online form link.
........................................................................................


Quote:
First point here is that you have told a deliberate lie. you have never asked for, nor been given permission to, reproduce anything by anyone connected with www.fastblacks.com. Why do you claim that you have?


lol I knew you would say that and that is why I said "tongue in cheek, that you gave me permission to highlight the dubious comments" perhaps I took it for granted that the person who wrote the comment would not mind it being referred to in the light that this person was openly soliciting the views and opinions of the public in respect of the TURNING CIRCLE?

I don't need your permission to refer to that particular comment but I new you would make it an issue and that is why I sarcastically said you gave me permission.

I would have thought the person making the comment would welcome the publicity that TDO can offer considering your site has very little traffic these days?

Quote:
Despite being told that I did not pen the item in question, you ignore that fact.


I wasn't aware that you hadn't penned the comment, I took it for granted you had considering you are the admin of Fastblacks and everything that is published on that site is put there by you?

You never disclaimed the comment so to the public it would appear you wrote it? You say you did not make the comment but I suspect most people will find that hard to believe? It is obvious you know who did write it so under the circumstances perhaps you can advise the Taxi trade and the Edinburgh public just who it is who is trying to deprive them of additional choices of vehicles?

To make life easier for yourself, perhaps next time to avoid any confusion you will write a disclaimer saying "the comments published on this page are not those of the administration".

You do like to complicate matters for yourself?

Quote:
Why? Is it another case of "never let the truth get in the way of your opinion?"


lol The truth is my friend that you published a comment on your website, which you now say is attributed to someone else. It doesn't matter to me who wrote it, I'm only concerned that the individual who did write it should not be foisting their opinions on others when they themselves are not being penalised by any future decision on the availability of choice?

The person who wrote the comment can still choose to drive the vehicle of his or her choice but this person is not happy with that because they also want everyone else to be limited to their personal preference? To me that is undemocratic and impugns on a persons right to choose. The local council has sole jurisdiction on what "reasonable" conditions can be attached to a vehicle in order that it is can be licensed as a Taxi. Just because you and the person who wrote the comment want retention of the turning circle it doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Like I said previously, there is nothing stopping you or the person who wrote the comment from driving a vehicle that complies with a 25 ft turning circle so what problem do you have with those who don't need to drive such a vehicle?

Quote:
Will the administrator of this site correct and/or remove your lies? Or will your "old pals" act overrule common decency?


Perhaps if you email the admin of TDO and inform them to which lies you refer then I am sure your application will be given due consideration?

Quote:
I freely admit that I, personally, think that retention of the turning circle requirement in Edinburgh is vital, I also regard my right to voice my opinion as vital too.


lol, so you do agree with the comment on your website? Perhaps under the circumstances you can advise us why you believe the Turning circle to be vital?

I don't think anyone would deny you the right to voice your opinion. That is why you have been offered the opportunity on TDO to enlarge on your comments of why other people should not be allowed to drive vehicles that do not comply with a 25 ft turning circle?

Quote:
If my support for this issue is regarded as interference "in the decision making of the council on such a matter" what the hell is your constant interference in licensing issues in areas about which you know precious little and care even less?


I asked you a specific question which most people on this forum would expect a specific answer? You chose to ignore the relevant part of the question, which does not surprise me in the least? However I'll ask it again just so the readers on this particular forum can see for themselves the type of individual we are dealing with here?

I'll ask you these questions Mr Gladstone are you in favour of allowing vehicles on the streets of Edinburgh that don't comply with the turning circle condition? Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

You answered the first question by stating "you did not want to see vehicles on the streets of Edinburgh that did not comply with the turning circle". You never gave a reason why but I won't press you on that, but that is not to say that others won't press you on the matter?

The second part of the question you did not answer, possibly because you don't have an answer? However, here it is again.

Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

Concentrate on the words "SUCH A MATTER" and "WHY".

I hope your having a nice day? lol

JD
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skippy41
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm 
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Right so you have a turning circle,but have you worked out how many streets in Edinburgh that you can actually do it :roll:I would say 30% not the 75% it use to be , given that most are one way now and nearly all the back streets are clogged up with cars parking on both sides so whats the point of driving a TX waisting money on fuel and other running expenses and the cost of them come on get into the real world and not the eye been
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Sussex
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:20 pm 
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I just find it sad that one driver who doesn't like the E7 is hell bent on stopping other drivers having a choice. :sad:

Some nasty people would say someone taking a bung. :roll:

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Ross
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:58 pm 
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MAKE THAT TWO
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Sussex
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:13 pm 
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I think these stories have come out just in time for the E7 decision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edi ... 029340.stm

Now the councillors will be able to say they are allowing cheaper vehicles which will lead to cheaper fares.

Again some nasty people will say this has Allied all over it. :roll:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:11 pm 
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Quote:
I think these stories have come out just in time for the E7 decision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edi ... 029340.stm

Now the councillors will be able to say they are allowing cheaper vehicles which will lead to cheaper fares.

Again some nasty people will say this has Allied all over it.


I tend to agree with the sentiments

£5.90 for a 3 mile fare?

expensive in the stix, but in a city? hmmm not so sure

In my experience the fares laid down by the LA are a maximum, you cannot charge more, but you may discount (unless the fare card says otherwise).

I cannot see Edinburghs fares going down if they license other types of WAV's, its a false argument.

Invariably, more expensive vehicles to run will still be licensed and they will continue to be the benchmark.

Captain Cab

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Skull
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:13 pm 
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Quote:
Sussex wrote:
I think these stories have come out just in time for the E7 decision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edi ... 029340.stm

Now the councillors will be able to say they are allowing cheaper vehicles which will lead to cheaper fares.


Do you really think so? :shock:


Imagine that :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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alan G
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:27 am 
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To try and cut the size of this post down, I have eliminated 2 original quotes from the top of JD's post and for clarity below I have replied to his comments in red.
JD wrote:
Quote:
First point here is that you have told a deliberate lie. you have never asked for, nor been given permission to, reproduce anything by anyone connected with www.fastblacks.com. Why do you claim that you have?


lol I knew you would say that and that is why I said "tongue in cheek, that you gave me permission to highlight the dubious comments" perhaps I took it for granted that the person who wrote the comment would not mind it being referred to in the light that this person was openly soliciting the views and opinions of the public in respect of the TURNING CIRCLE?
As expected, when exposed as a liar, you change your tune and claim that your remark was "tongue in cheek." It is a tactic you use extensively when caught out. Be a man and admit you lied deliberately.

I don't need your permission to refer to that particular comment but I new you would make it an issue and that is why I sarcastically said you gave me permission.
Always a problem for liars is remembering what they said. So, read the 2 quotes and tell us, was your remark "tongue in cheek", "sarcastic", or just a lie?

I would have thought the person making the comment would welcome the publicity that TDO can offer considering your site has very little traffic these days?
Fastblacks stats are on the up and up, it's just the open forum that you see that has less activity at the moment.

Quote:
Despite being told that I did not pen the item in question, you ignore that fact.


I wasn't aware that you hadn't penned the comment, I took it for granted you had considering you are the admin of Fastblacks and everything that is published on that site is put there by you?
Another lie or just an inability to comprehend what you read? You did actually quote my statement "Apart from the fact that I did not pen the content of the page......." yet claim to be unaware of that fact.

You never disclaimed the comment so to the public it would appear you wrote it? You say you did not make the comment but I suspect most people will find that hard to believe? It is obvious you know who did write it so under the circumstances perhaps you can advise the Taxi trade and the Edinburgh public just who it is who is trying to deprive them of additional choices of vehicles?
All will be revealed in due course as Fastblacks evolves. Firstly to those most involved and latterly to outside parties like yourself.

To make life easier for yourself, perhaps next time to avoid any confusion you will write a disclaimer saying "the comments published on this page are not those of the administration".
Fastblacks is aimed primarily at those of an age to drive or use taxis, not one other person has a problem with this page - so...... Look at the page and you will see primarily a request for comments along with some relevant facts. There are no comments.

You do like to complicate matters for yourself?
Not me, it's you who tries to make everything more complicated than it really is.

Quote:
Why? Is it another case of "never let the truth get in the way of your opinion?"


lol The truth is my friend that you published a comment on your website, which you now say is attributed to someone else. It doesn't matter to me who wrote it, I'm only concerned that the individual who did write it should not be foisting their opinions on others when they themselves are not being penalised by any future decision on the availability of choice?

The person who wrote the comment can still choose to drive the vehicle of his or her choice but this person is not happy with that because they also want everyone else to be limited to their personal preference? To me that is undemocratic and impugns on a persons right to choose. The local council has sole jurisdiction on what "reasonable" conditions can be attached to a vehicle in order that it is can be licensed as a Taxi. Just because you and the person who wrote the comment want retention of the turning circle it doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Like I said previously, there is nothing stopping you or the person who wrote the comment from driving a vehicle that complies with a 25 ft turning circle so what problem do you have with those who don't need to drive such a vehicle?
As I said they are not opinions ,but statements of fact. "foisting their opinions on others ......." what comes to mind there is a well known saying made out of these words - "pot, kettle, black ,call"

Quote:
Will the administrator of this site correct and/or remove your lies? Or will your "old pals" act overrule common decency?


Perhaps if you email the admin of TDO and inform them to which lies you refer then I am sure your application will be given due consideration?
Since he/she/it/they read(s) the forum they are well aware of your lies and as yet have not removed them - which is not entirely unexpected.

Quote:
I freely admit that I, personally, think that retention of the turning circle requirement in Edinburgh is vital, I also regard my right to voice my opinion as vital too.


lol, so you do agree with the comment on your website? Perhaps under the circumstances you can advise us why you believe the Turning circle to be vital?

I don't think anyone would deny you the right to voice your opinion. That is why you have been offered the opportunity on TDO to enlarge on your comments of why other people should not be allowed to drive vehicles that do not comply with a 25 ft turning circle?
My opinion has been stated elsewhere and to justify it here is unnecessary, since this site mirrors little of interest to Edinburgh cabbies, other than those who seek permanent confrontation. Interesting to note you seem to regard this site as holding some elevated position.

Quote:
If my support for this issue is regarded as interference "in the decision making of the council on such a matter" what the hell is your constant interference in licensing issues in areas about which you know precious little and care even less?


I asked you a specific question which most people on this forum would expect a specific answer? You chose to ignore the relevant part of the question, which does not surprise me in the least? However I'll ask it again just so the readers on this particular forum can see for themselves the type of individual we are dealing with here?

I'll ask you these questions Mr Gladstone are you in favour of allowing vehicles on the streets of Edinburgh that don't comply with the turning circle condition? Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

You answered the first question by stating "you did not want to see vehicles on the streets of Edinburgh that did not comply with the turning circle". You never gave a reason why but I won't press you on that, but that is not to say that others won't press you on the matter?

The second part of the question you did not answer, possibly because you don't have an answer? However, here it is again.

Do you think you should interfere in the decision making of the council on such a matter and if so, why?

Concentrate on the words "SUCH A MATTER" and "WHY".
Briefly, I am entitled to comment on "SUCH A MATTER" and if this constitutes interference then so be it. "WHY?" I am a member of the Edinburgh taxi trade and as such have every right to make representations to whoever I think appropriate.

I hope your having a nice day? lol

Great day, actually. Out in the sunshine, in the garden, pottering about, planting out some plug plants and tending my greenhouse. Hence my not replying to your post til now. How about you? :wink: :wink: :wink:


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chipper
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:21 am 
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Sussex wrote:
I just find it sad that one driver who doesn't like the E7 is hell bent on stopping other drivers having a choice. :sad:

Some nasty people would say someone taking a bung. :roll:


sussex old man they just dont want anyone to have a choice the public or others in there trade.

the thing that gets me is they have a choice to use greenways and no right turns for example i dont have that choice and they will fight to make sure no PH ever does so you see the trend goes a wee bit like this "its my way or no way" pure and simple


but there is a change on its way.
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chipper
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:26 pm
Posts: 850
Location: jock HQ
Ross wrote:
MAKE THAT TWO


ok np do you want your Imagewhite or black
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