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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:24 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
I don't think there's any confusion about private hire being able to operate anywhere in the country as long as the operator/car/driver is all licensed by the same authority, thanks for the case though.

I'm pretty sure I've read a case or in one of the acts that a hackney carriage must either start or finish in his controlled area.


I'm pretty sure you havent.

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I believe the dft report also mentioned this as being one of the distinguishing features between ph and hc. When I remember where I read it I'll post the reference. I'm sure it was a court ruling.


It would seem you are confusing plying for public hire in a street and Radio work.

A hackney carriage can only ply for public hire in his licensed area, as you probably know. Maybe thats what you read?

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JD


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:28 pm 
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1995 or 96

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:35 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
Dft view on hc and cross border hirings here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C309 ... OFT676.pdf

It's tucked away on page 76.

I'll still try and remeber the actual legislation.


Kevin


Thats the OFT report not a court case or an act of Parliament. Obviously whoever wrote that little piece got it completely wrong. I'll contact the OFT and find out who wrote that.

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JD


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:51 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
Dft view on hc and cross border hirings here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C309 ... OFT676.pdf

It's tucked away on page 76.

I'll still try and remeber the actual legislation.


Kevin


If you read Section 2 on page 77 on cross border hiring it is quite clear in respect of Taxis they are talking about taking a job under public hire conditions, ie plying for hire in the street.

7.19 A taxi is permitted to take passengers from within the area in which it is licensed to anywhere in the country. Taxis can also, theoretically at least, be hired in the area in which they are licensed to go from anywhere to anywhere in the country.

However, the taxi vehicles cannot ply for hire at a rank or in the street outside their own licensing areas. For PHVs the rules are less strict. PHV firms can advertise and supply services anywhere in the country as long as the drivers vehicles and operator are all licensed by the same LA and the operator takes bookings from an office within the area of the LA where it is licensed. It remains unlawful, however, for a PHV operator to take a booking at premises outside the licensed area.

7.20 In practice, it is of course more likely that a taxi will be hired to take a passenger to a neighbouring LA, but will not be able to accept a fare that wishes to go from the neighbouring LA into the LA in which the taxi is licensed. Arguably, this has an adverse effect on consumers’ freedom to hire taxis and taxis’ ability to meet consumer demand.


......................................................


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:53 pm 
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That sort of conflicts with their section 7.2



7.2 Taxis can take passengers from within their licensed area to other LAs
but cannot accept bookings for passengers or ply for hire outside the
area in which they are licensed.
PHVs can take passengers from any
point to any other providing the PHV driver, vehicle and operator are
licensed in the same area. We believe that the current position on cross
border hiring adversely affects consumers and drivers to a limited extent
but accept that local licensing and enforcement procedures make cross
border hiring difficult to implement.

with regard to section 1.9

7.19 A taxi is permitted to take passengers from within the area in which it is licensed to anywhere in the country. Taxis can also, theoretically at least, be hired in the area in which they are licensed to go from anywhere to anywhere in the country.

The question is does the person who makes the booking need to be in the licensing area or can he be outside and telephone into the licensing area?
I'm now licensed by monmouthshire council that has lower fares and standards than hereford but herefords border is less than 1 mile away so can people call me who live in hereford and make a booking even though they are outside the area?

kevin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:44 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
That sort of conflicts with their section 7.2

7.2 Taxis can take passengers from within their licensed area to other LAs
but cannot accept bookings for passengers or ply for hire outside the
area in which they are licensed.
PHVs can take passengers from any
point to any other providing the PHV driver, vehicle and operator are
licensed in the same area. We believe that the current position on cross
border hiring adversely affects consumers and drivers to a limited extent
but accept that local licensing and enforcement procedures make cross
border hiring difficult to implement.

with regard to section 1.9

7.19 A taxi is permitted to take passengers from within the area in which it is licensed to anywhere in the country. Taxis can also, theoretically at least, be hired in the area in which they are licensed to go from anywhere to anywhere in the country.


The section you quote 7.2 is only a brief introduction the summary is clearly stated in 7.19.

You only have to scroll down to the Glossary of the OFT definitions to see the meaning of the three elements which apply in this report.

Cross border hiring

The act of booking a taxi outside of its licensed area of operation.

Phone booked sector/ pre-booked sector

A market sector in which vehicles are pre-booked over the phone. This sector includes "both private hire vehicles and taxis".

Private hire vehicle (PHV)

A vehicle which is licensed to carry up to eight passengers who have "prebooked but which is not licensed to ply for hire".

Taxi

A licensed vehicle which can "ply for hire and take pre booked fares".

When you read the whole section it lessens the ambiguity but it doesn't alter the fact that the author doesn't seem to explain very well the way a hackney carriage performs under a contract of Private hire.

7.19 A taxi is permitted to take passengers from within the area in which it is licensed to anywhere in the country.

The above passage is self-explanatory.

Taxis can also, theoretically at least, be hired in the area in which they are licensed to go from anywhere to anywhere in the country.

Again the above passage is self-explanatory.

However, the taxi vehicles cannot ply for hire at a rank or in the street outside their own licensing areas.

That is also self-explanatory.

The person who wrote this part of the report or perhaps copied it from information given by a supposed expert or experts, obviously didn't do a very good job of explaining the facts. For instance he states....

However, the taxi vehicles cannot ply for hire at a rank or in the street outside their own licensing areas. "For PHVs the rules are less strict".

It is obvious this person doesn't understand that rules are stricter for private hire drivers than they are for hackney carriages. It wouldn't surprise me if this information had been copied from a NAPHLEO report because it has all the hallmarks of something Peter Perkins might say.

Reports are reports and nothing else, we see the same inaccuracies in some survey reports conducted by so called experts. The only place were you can be assured of reliable information, is TDO.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:49 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
The question is does the person who makes the booking need to be in the licensing area or can he be outside and telephone into the licensing area?


I've already explained the law in relation to private hire bookings for both Hackney carriages and Private hire vehicles.

Quote:
I'm now licensed by monmouthshire council that has lower fares and standards than hereford but herefords border is less than 1 mile away so can people call me who live in hereford and make a booking even though they are outside the area?


What do you think, after reading everything I and others have said about the subject?

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:26 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
The question is does the person who makes the booking need to be in the licensing area or can he be outside and telephone into the licensing area?

I'm now licensed by monmouthshire council that has lower fares and standards than hereford but herefords border is less than 1 mile away so can people call me who live in hereford and make a booking even though they are outside the area?


I suggest you read these cases if you really want to know how the law applies to private hire operator's.

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3808

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3618

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3810

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=58034

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=58036

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=58039

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:05 pm 
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I've got no problems with the law and private hire.

The question is can HC take out of area bookings.

As a hc I can go out of area if a private hire operator gives me a job or if I have my own private hire operators licence.

The question is can a hc driver without a ph operators licence do the same. I will find the legislation/case that says no, but give me time. Sundays are not a good day for legal research.


Kevin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:19 pm 
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herfordian wrote:
I've got no problems with the law and private hire.

The question is can HC take out of area bookings.


Well if they can't every hack radio company in the country has been breaking the law for decades. lol.

Quote:
As a hc I can go out of area if a private hire operator gives me a job or if I have my own private hire operators licence.


What don't you understand? You don't need a private higher operators license for a hackney carriage. You trying to wind me up? lol Go and read the computer cab case.

We've already established the private hire situation after a lot of teeth pulling.

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:41 am 
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Ok then lets just re-cap.

A HC can work anywhere in the UK under a PH contract with a PH operator. That's clear and I think understood.

The question here seems to be that there seems to be a confusion as to whether he can take a booking from outside his licensed borough if he HAS NOT entered into a PH contract with a PH operator in that area.

This is a valid point as the law does state that a HC journey should start or end in the vehicles licensed area, and without the dispensation of a PH contract with a licensed PH operator in that area, would that booking be wholly legal.

So to be afforded the dispensation should he not become a PH operator and then he would be covered under that PH contract.

Hmmmmmmm should be interesting.

B. Lucky :?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:56 am 
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GA wrote:
Ok then lets just re-cap.

A HC can work anywhere in the UK under a PH contract with a PH operator. That's clear and I think understood.

The question here seems to be that there seems to be a confusion as to whether he can take a booking from outside his licensed borough if he HAS NOT entered into a PH contract with a PH operator in that area.


Why are you confused and whats this legislation that says a hackney carriage journey must start or finish in the licensed area?

JD


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:38 am 
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herfordian wrote:
The question is can a hc driver without a ph operators licence do the same.

Yes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:43 am 
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GA wrote:
This is a valid point as the law does state that a HC journey should start or end in the vehicles licensed area, and without the dispensation of a PH contract with a licensed PH operator in that area, would that booking be wholly legal.


I can see the Gladen ruling hasn't quite sunk in yet? Read my lips.....

Different regimes apply to hackney carriages and private hire vehicles it is unnecessary for there to be an operator's licence under s 55 where hackney carriages are being used by licensed hackney carriage drivers in a private hire context. Therefore by "LAW", and I'll repeat that, by "LAW", a hackney carriage driver or his agent does not need a license of any sort to make provision for and accept private bookings. Is that clear enough?

Quote:
So to be afforded the dispensation should he not become a PH operator and then he would be covered under that PH contract.


No, because according to LAW a hackney carriage is not a private hire vehicle and everyone knows that, or at least they should know that? The fact is you can't seem to grasp the fact that you only need a private hire operators license when you plan on operating private hire vehicles.

You didn't go to the same law school as James Button by any chance?

Quote:
Hmmmmmmm should be interesting.


Don't you mean boring?

JD


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:09 am 
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Hackney Carriages and Private Hire Vehicles.

46 Vehicle, drivers' and operators' licences

(1) Except as authorised by this Part of this Act—

* (a) no person being the proprietor of any vehicle, not being a hackney carriage1 or London cab in respect of which a vehicle licence is in force, shall use or permit the same to be used in a controlled district as a private hire vehicle without having for such a vehicle a current licence under section 48 of this Act;

* (b) no person shall in a controlled district act as driver of any private hire vehicle without having a current licence under section 51 of this Act4;

* (c) no person being the proprietor of a private hire vehicle licensed under this Part of this Act shall employ as the driver thereof for the purpose of any hiring any person who does not have a current licence under the said section 51;

* (d) no person shall in a controlled district operate any vehicle as a private hire vehicle without having a current licence under section 55 of this Act5;

* (e) no person licensed under the said section 55 shall in a controlled district operate any vehicle as a private hire vehicle—

* (i) if for the vehicle a current licence under the said section 48 is not in force; or
(ii) if the driver does not have a current licence under the said section

(2) If any person knowingly contravenes the provisions of this section, he shall be guilty of an offence. [Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, s 46, as amended by the Transport Act 1985, Sch 7.]

* For meaning of “proprietor”, “hackney carriage”, “vehicle licence”, “controlled district”, “operate” and “private hire vehicle”, see s 80(1), post.

The fact that a vehicle is licensed as a hackney carriage by one local authority does not preclude its being a private hire vehicle in the area of another local authority (Kingston upon Hull City Council v Wilson (1995) Times, 25 July). For the purposes of s 46(1)(d) and (e), the meaning of “operate” is that provided in s 80(1), post (Adur District Council v Fry [1997] RTR 257).

* The word “operate” in s 46(1)(d) has the technical meaning set out in s 80(1), post, and the definitions in the latter provision of “operate”, “operator's licence” and “private hire vehicle” make clear that “hackney carriages” are excluded from s 46(1)(d); therefore, when such a vehicle is being used as a private hire vehicle by a licensed hackney carriage driver there is no need for the person accepting the bookings to be licensed under s 55, post: Brentwood Borough Council v Gladen [2004] EWHC (Admin) 2500, [2005] RTR 12.

* 2 Where a hackney carriage, in respect of which a vehicle licence was in force, was used to collect a passenger in a controlled district outside the area of the local authority that had issued the vehicle licence, it was held no offence had been committed (Britain v ABC Cabs (Camberley) Ltd [1981] RTR 395).

..................................................................


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