Taxi Driver Online

I didn't know this website was an NTA member , where do I send the 2007 invoice?

Half that columns on about NTA resolutions, and the first bits on about working with stakeholders.

The Reiver is having a bash at JB , but by my own accounts I'd rather listen to the expert opinion of Bryan Rowland than the opinion of JB who seems to think we should have an entirely new system but for the most part keep it a secret

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

I was looking at it from the perspective of the average reader. The Editorial was fine, your contributions were fine one or two other items were fine but for the most part I found it disinteresting especially the articles about London. I suppose thats because those types of London articles don't hold my interest, however perhaps when your sat on a rank doing nothing it might be different.

Regards

JD

Having decided I was right with regards to hackney carriage circuits having radio licenses

On with the thread.

Hackney Carriage fares are a mish mash.

Currently the 1847 act seems to condone cherrypicking.

Therefore swathes of the 1847 act are up for repeal with certain sections of the 1976 act due for rehashing.

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

I am deeply surprised that the EU has not come up with a European wide idea for the ideal Taxi etc.
Perhaps we are next after the ‘harmonising’ of all things Europe [read German/French], from money to standard house brick size!

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If it carries passengers it should be licensed

In what way are they a mish mash? And what is your solution to have them unmish-mashed?



I thought you said there was nothing wrong with the 160-year-old legislation of the 1847 act? So what's a Cherry picker and what does the 1847 act say about cherry pickers?



Who says so? Is this a revelation that the minority grouping known as the NTA are surreptitiously trying to alter outdated legislation without making it known to the majority of the Taxi trade what those changes might be?

I think the NTA should reflect on the minority of interests they represent and not position themselves above their inflated status.

Regards

JD

My suggestion would be a formula developed by the treasury to give local authorities clear ground rules on how to assess the correct fares for their area.

Cherry pickers vary but the best ones seem to be those who sit on roads in busy areas during busy periods, when approached they advise people they are booked, the desparate passenger then offers more money to get home than they would pay 'on the meter', the driver is then suddenly not booked and accepts the fare.

The 1847 act seems reasonably clear on the issue, however, if the fare is going beyond the prescribed distance then its less clear, I think this needs cleared up once and for all.

S66 of the 1976 Act sets down that before a long journey starts the driver is obliged to tell the passenger what rate will be charged and if he does then that rate can be charged. On the grounds of certainty if he does not then only the appropriate tariff may be charged.

S67 of the 1976 Act defines what is a contract of purported Private Hire for a hackney carriage (basically any journey that is prebooked).

Several sections could be amalgamated into one by repealing Ss 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 66 and 67 of the 1847 Act and Ss 66 and 67 of the 1976 Act and by replacing them with two new Ss 66 and 67 of the 1976 Act

You are entitled to your opinion of the NTA, being a minority yourself.

However, when the NTA meet with other stakeholders regarding non contentious changes to legislation I suggest any changes will occur as they are the views of the stakeholders as a whole, as opposed to any individual body.

regards

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

But legislation has already given councils the right to set fares in their "area" and the treasury or any other Government department cannot alter that fact and nor would they even try. The only way to redesign the way fares are regulated is for the imposition of new legislation. This is yet another instance where you are totally at odds with your stated perception that "councils know best" and "are best placed to decide what is best for their area"?

Practically every step you take is over-shadowed by your past inference that councils know best, yet time and time again on many occasions on this forum you have implied that councils do not know best? Perhaps it’s a case of councils only know best when it comes to limiting hackney carriage numbers? Would that be a correct analysis?

Regards

JD

Your not thinking along the same lines as me JD, I am suggesting the repeal of sections of the 1847 act an 1976 act, this would still give the LA the power to set fares.

With regards to the fares they set, I see that as separate, but guidance from the treasury should surely be in place which takes it out of the hands of a possible political decision?

Locals are best placed to decide, it seems rather silly telling you the same thing in each post, so please try to get it right.

Your analysis is incorrect.

regards

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Yes, although I haven't posted it yet, I did respond to all the points you raised in your response to my enquiry about cherry pickers? This particular point is in reference to your idea that the treasury should produce a formula for local councils to follow.

You said "your suggestion would be a formula developed by the treasury to give local authorities clear ground rules on how to assess the correct fares for their area".

As I previously stated I can't see why you wish to involve the treasury? You must have had an idea of what you were thinking when you mentioned the treasury intervention? I suspect like me, the readers on here are interested in what type of formula you had in mind? How would your formula work and would it be implemented annually and include the London Cab trade and would it extend to private hire companies and if not why not? I suspect the Treasury formula would be by way of advice rather than legislation, is that what you had in mind?



Your paragraph above implies that some councillors fetter their decision on the grounds of political bias but surely fetters occur all the time and the only time they get any prominence is when councillors are brought to account before the courts? You say you don't want fare rises subject to political decisions, meaning you want to take the decision making out of the hands of councillors? Yet I was under the impression that you preferred councillors to make decisions so why are we seeing a gradual about turn in your confidence of local councillors?

I have never been of the opinion that councillors know best and you have highlighted one of the many reasons why? Councillors on many occasions have demonstrated their inability to think and act independently of their political persuasion and a bias in favour of party policy has in many cases resulted in adverse decisions.

Not so long ago you stated that with negotiation a fare formula can be achieved locally without assistance from the NTA or T&G. Yet you now tell us that assistance is needed from the Treasury? You obviously didn't have any reservations about councillors negotiating fare formulas at the time you made that statement so why the change of heart?



I'm sorry to keep harping on about the fact that you are part and parcel of that section of the Taxi trade who subscribes to the theory that "councils know best". However I find it amusing that time and time again the leopards are constantly changing their spots and disagreeing with their original doctrine, which yes you guessed it "councils know best".

If you would like to put it on record that you "personally" believe councillors don't always know best then I'll gladly refrain from reminding you of what you said in the past. However I cannot say the same for the NTA or T&G because they are still of the opinion that councillors do know best.

I would just like to add that I'm on record as saying "all" you guys who put time and effort into working for what you believe is right for your own particular organisation and members, has my deepest admiration, no matter who or what organisation you represent?

Having said that, I doubt I would ever make a recommendation if for one moment I thought it would have a detrimental effect on the taxi trade as a whole. It is for this reason that you will always find people like me probing the reasoning behind the policies advocated by people like you.



I'm sure you are quite right?

Regards

JD

I would suggest a formula along the lines of the 'Brighton' formula.

It would not apply to London as London are not in the provinces, although as the fare formula from Brighton makes reference to average earnings in individual locations, which I understand are available on an annual basis.

It would not apply to Private Hire, because PH fares are a different issue and not covered by legislation.



No, I stated that should surely be in place which takes it out of the hands of a possible political decision?

There are examples of areas perhaps deliberately keeping fares lower than they should be due to it being a political decision, I believe similar instances were common practice when councils operated bus services?

I know of one place that had the LA's own treasury department support the fare increase application, yet, as the local authority were effectively a 'hung' council with no overall control, one political party decided to oppose everything the other did. The result was no fare increase.

I am not saying that assistance is needed, I am saying there should be a set formula.



You harp? never

No, its locals are best placed to decide, I dont recall mentioning the word councillors.

People like me? OMG JD thats almost personal

regards

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the local licensing system, it is a system which is currently in place and what we must work with at the moment.

The current system is unlikely to change in the forseeable future, it surely follows that if its what we've got, then if possible it needs improved, or at the very least, discussion to see what people want to see improved.

The current system has two key flaws, those that issue the licenses and those that are issued with them, but if we follow that logic, then we wouldnt have taxis or private hire

Indeed, a system where a persons livlihood is judged by unqualified officers (and to a certain degree unsackable) and even less qualified councillors is fatally flawed from the start, BUT its what we've got.

regards

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Did the Treasury design Brightons Formula?

Would this Treasury formula be binding on all councils, or would it be in the form of guidance? Like most people on here I have no idea what the Brighton formula entails, is there any chance you could explain it, please?

Regards

JD

What about Scotland and Northern ireland should they have a Treasury formula?



So can we assume that you believe your treasury formula should only apply to those councils in England and Wales who come under the 1847 Town Police clauses act? Do those councils in Scotland who set fares in their own prescribed area already have the right formula or is this just an English and Welsh council disease?

I was under the impression the 1847 act only gave powers to licensing authorities to set fares by way of byelaws the act doesn't say they have to set fares? Therefore in order to make the Treasury formula you talk about binding you would have to ammend the 1847 act, is that what you have in mind?

Regards

JD

What if the majority of Taxi drivers didn't agree with this Treasury formula and they found themselves worse off, how would you rectify that?

Regards

JD

http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=37

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IDFIMH