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UK cab trade debate and advice
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:15 am 
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PooleTaxis wrote:
My point is that rules should be in place to ensure that plates only go to those that qualify. Money should not go out of the trade, but as with most businesses good will has a premium. The work has been built up over the years by the existing drivers why should a new comer get that for free. In my area you have to have 3 years as a driver to get on the waiting list. This at least ensures you have made some contribution. I am not against de-regulation but we need time to change and controls to ensure standards are maintained.


The difference between our trade and the bus and rail, is that over half our trade is already de-limited.

We therefore have a good idea of what will happen.

In some areas with poor council officialdom, it's not perfect, but in every de-limited district that I come across, the trade works fine.

The goodwill aspect, is in my opinion a big fat lie. There is nothing good about any trade that builds up on the back of a monopoly.

Thankfully the courts agree.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:49 pm 
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PooleTaxis wrote:
My point is that rules should be in place to ensure that plates only go to those that qualify. Money should not go out of the trade, but as with most businesses good will has a premium. The work has been built up over the years by the existing drivers why should a new comer get that for free. In my area you have to have 3 years as a driver to get on the waiting list. This at least ensures you have made some contribution. I am not against de-regulation but we need time to change and controls to ensure standards are maintained. Look at the fiasco caused by bus de-reg. The railway de-nationalisation. Regulation was introduced years ago to end chaos and give the trade stabillity. Does anyone believe in a free-for-all totally unregulated market. Who would invest in 20k+ vehicles, computer data systems etc. in that business environment. We all know there has to be rules, but who will set them.
T.


So you're saying that you need restricted numbers to be able to invest? Not so, have a look outside Poole sometime, it's happening all over the country.

Your point about goodwill seems to be mixing up the street and pre-booked market - you don't 'build up' work in the street market - you just turn up and it's there!!

If there was any goodwill then license holders would have something to sell after de-restriction, but most don't - the plate value is caused only by the local monopoly.

If they've got a pre-booked customer base and can sell it, then that's goodwill, fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:00 pm 
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PooleTaxis wrote:
[What did I start ?
I was refering to the marketting agents etc as being the parasites not those who sell plates. That is a different issue, but I do take your point it is something that needs addressing.


When you said:

"There are far too many parasites on the taxi trade, supermarket, hospital payphones etc. they sell our service and we are daft enough to pay them for doing it."

I agree it's a different issue, but on a point of principle you seem to be describing as parasites those who are taking advantage of drivers in one way, but when I mention taking advantage of drivers in another way then you cry foul.

You then said:

"You should not critiscise someone who takes advantage of the system because the system is wrong. Thats sour grapes because you have not had that oportunity. "

So isn't this equally applicable to your point about supermarkets and hospitals?

But you are correct, I don't really blame people for taking advantage of the system (which is ultimately the problem), but it's often difficult to seperate the two, particularly as in the Wirral case, where the complainant kicked up a stink and just demonstrated his double standards to the rest of the world, so if anyone critices him then he only has himself to blame.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:22 pm 
D:So you're saying that you need restricted numbers to be able to invest? Not so, have a look outside Poole sometime, it's happening all over the country.

T: You need a stable environment to get investment, we have had years of uncertainty, de-reg, WAV, etc. Is the service any better in de-reg areas, do drivers earn more, work less hours ? Change has to bring advantages or why bother.

D: Your point about goodwill seems to be mixing up the street and pre-booked market - you don't 'build up' work in the street market - you just turn up and it's there!!

T: Turn up and its there !! It's there because the rank has been serviced by drivers and customer know that it is where you can get a taxi, is that not goodwill ? No taxis no customers, chicken and egg.

D: If there was any goodwill then license holders would have something to sell after de-restriction, but most don't - the plate value is caused only by the local monopoly.

T: Do you think it right that after years of work you have nothing to show for it ? The current system is far from perfect but swinging from one extreme to the other is not the way forward. Nothing is ever that simple.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:55 pm 
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Back to the day of action.

You have drivers from around the country fighting de-restricting numbers, going to the biggest manor in the UK that doesn't restrict numbers.

I wonder if those lobbying will be saying to MPs "look at the flawed system around you in London"? :?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:23 am 
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T wrote:
T: You need a stable environment to get investment, we have had years of uncertainty, de-reg, WAV, etc. Is the service any better in de-reg areas, do drivers earn more, work less hours ? Change has to bring advantages or why bother.


I agree that we need a stable environment for investment Mr T, but I disagree with your point about unrestricted areas. Restrictions may help some people, but not others - in a restricted area I worked in I was earning about £2 an hour dayshift less than a decade ago. And there was still a 'shortage' of drivers, according to many plate holders - clearly £2 per hour wasn't low enough for them. So many drivers had to work long hours, and in my experience plate holders didn't bother about how many hours they worked. I'm not saying all areas are like this, or all plate holders take this attitude, but your post doesn't show the full picture.

By contrast, I would imagine that London cabbies are among the biggest earners in the trade, with no quota in site - of course, entry is restricted there, so this drives up earnings, but the system there is a level playing field, and the restriction is on the drivers, not the means of doing the job, which just gives those who hold plates a financial stranglehold over other drivers.

T wrote:
T: Turn up and its there !! It's there because the rank has been serviced by drivers and customer know that it is where you can get a taxi, is that not goodwill ? No taxis no customers, chicken and egg.


No rank, no taxis, no customers - so the goodwill belongs to the council? Surely the point is that goodwill depends on the ability to attract customers, and that just isn't the case in the rank and hail markets. If you argument was correct then drivers in unrestricted areas should have goodwill to sell on, but they clearly don't. If there was goodwill in the economic sense then it would not disappear automatically on de-limitation, but it does.

That's not to say that there isn't goodwill in the trade, but this normally relates to things like phone numbers or a company name, and for the vast majority of drivers this just isn't relevant.

In theory I suppose there could be a goodwill scenario in the rank market - for example if a driver had people going to his car specifically on the rank. To that extent he could sell his business to somone else, and to that extent this would constitute goodwill, but in that kind of case the goodwill would probably attach only to that driver, and thus there would be nothing sellable to any other driver.

T wrote:
T: Do you think it right that after years of work you have nothing to show for it ? The current system is far from perfect but swinging from one extreme to the other is not the way forward. Nothing is ever that simple.


Millions of people have nothing to show for years of work except a state or occupational pension or a pension that they've paid out of their earnings. The cab trade is no different - the vast majority of PH drivers and even taxi drivers have nothing at the end, except the minority group that represents plate holders.

The problem with the system you endorse is that it may create some winners, but a lot of losers at the same time, and is also something of a lottery.

For example, you said earlier that drivers in your area could go on a waiting list after 3 years, but what happens after that - it may be fairer in some areas than in others, but in some places it's something of a lottery.

There could be some merit in a 3 year apprenticeship, for example, before a plate is awarded, but then since the plate would have no value from your perspective the whole thing would be pointless. Or if you said that you could buy the plate before the three years but not get one free, then that hardly concurs with any kind of 'apprenticeship' argument.

I think a better idea is to impose reasonable barriers to getting a badge, which will boost earnings, and in turn this will allow drivers to save or contribute to a pension - then the longer in they are in the trade, the more they will have to show for it.

Dusty


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:58 pm 
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Seems a strange decision to have a day of action after the select committee appeared so sympathetic to the status quo.

It may well antagonise the situation.

As for the parasites leaching from the trade, we have quite a few of our own already in the trade.

Returning the the beloved T&G policy for a single tier system, I find it quite amazing that they are taking such a two faced stance in this. A single tier system but you must buy a plate?

They seem to want to attract private hire with their calls for a single tier, but keep the existing hack trade satisfied by opposing the OFT.

Strange Times, but keeps me entertained!

regards

Captain cab


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:32 am 
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Is this the same T&G that blocked the Automatic Train Protection (ATP) for our Advanced Passenger Train in 1974, saying that ATP was "the thin end of the wedge towards driverless trains"

and then, after the Paddington crash when one of their members drove through a red signal said "we have been on at the Government to install ATP for years in order to protect our members.

Or is my memory slipping again?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:37 am 
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And is this not the same T&G who moved into the fishing business in the mid 1970s requiring excessive wages and conditions for tralwer crews, and subsequently made the British fishing fleet so expensive to run that all the companies flagged-out thier ships and quotas to Spain and the like?

Is this not the same T&G who with their antics depleted the British Merchant Navy in the 1970s and 80s at a faster rate than even Adolf Hitler managed with Doenitz's U-boats during WW2?

I am only asking questions...

But having been made redundant from two industries already, I really aint all that interested in the T&G putting me on the dole yet again.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:13 am 
stop picking on the T&G, it only upsets people!

this is not an anti T&G site

you dont think the hidden agenda is that the T&G will have us out in trawlers do you, cause I hate the water.

regards

Captain Cab


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:10 pm 
Sussex Man wrote:
It's those stupid cabbies in Watford themselves, that led to them being booted off the station's rank. :shock:

If they didn't follow the big mouths and instead paid the increase, which I'm led to believe was a couple of quid a week, then all this grief wouldn't be happening.

But some pretend to know best. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Anyway could someone tell Mr Cgull, when the union will be demonstrating at Brighton station, thus allowing that station to be 'free and open' to all HC drivers, not just those in the union.

Same union, 100 mile gap, different policy. :? :? :? :?


Hey Suspect you ain't heard the latest news have you??? Thompson's the T&G's Solicitors have written a stiff letter to Watford Councils licensing officer pointing out the implications of the PH serving Watford Station, the licensing officer has told Silverlink that any PH ranking up on the station forecourt will be prosecuted. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D It just gets better :D :D :D :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:28 pm 
Nidge wrote:
Sussex Man wrote:
It's those stupid cabbies in Watford themselves, that led to them being booted off the station's rank. :shock:

If they didn't follow the big mouths and instead paid the increase, which I'm led to believe was a couple of quid a week, then all this grief wouldn't be happening.

But some pretend to know best. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Anyway could someone tell Mr Cgull, when the union will be demonstrating at Brighton station, thus allowing that station to be 'free and open' to all HC drivers, not just those in the union.

Same union, 100 mile gap, different policy. :? :? :? :?


Hey Suspect you ain't heard the latest news have you??? Thompson's the T&G's Solicitors have written a stiff letter to Watford Councils licensing officer pointing out the implications of the PH serving Watford Station, the licensing officer has told Silverlink that any PH ranking up on the station forecourt will be prosecuted. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D It just gets better :D :D :D :D :D :D




what are they prosecuted for?

they can pick up on a telephone booking.

a cab firm opened an office on Todmorden station...................
then they put private hire on the fleet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:35 pm 
Anonymous wrote:
Nidge wrote:
Sussex Man wrote:
It's those stupid cabbies in Watford themselves, that led to them being booted off the station's rank. :shock:

If they didn't follow the big mouths and instead paid the increase, which I'm led to believe was a couple of quid a week, then all this grief wouldn't be happening.

But some pretend to know best. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Anyway could someone tell Mr Cgull, when the union will be demonstrating at Brighton station, thus allowing that station to be 'free and open' to all HC drivers, not just those in the union.

Same union, 100 mile gap, different policy. :? :? :? :?


Hey Suspect you ain't heard the latest news have you??? Thompson's the T&G's Solicitors have written a stiff letter to Watford Councils licensing officer pointing out the implications of the PH serving Watford Station, the licensing officer has told Silverlink that any PH ranking up on the station forecourt will be prosecuted. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D It just gets better :D :D :D :D :D :D




what are they prosecuted for?

they can pick up on a telephone booking.

a cab firm opened an office on Todmorden station...................
then they put private hire on the fleet.


Plying for hire Geoffrey simple, they must be out of view of the public.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:45 pm 
Nidge wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Nidge wrote:
Sussex Man wrote:
It's those stupid cabbies in Watford themselves, that led to them being booted off the station's rank. :shock:

If they didn't follow the big mouths and instead paid the increase, which I'm led to believe was a couple of quid a week, then all this grief wouldn't be happening.

But some pretend to know best. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Anyway could someone tell Mr Cgull, when the union will be demonstrating at Brighton station, thus allowing that station to be 'free and open' to all HC drivers, not just those in the union.

Same union, 100 mile gap, different policy. :? :? :? :?


Hey Suspect you ain't heard the latest news have you??? Thompson's the T&G's Solicitors have written a stiff letter to Watford Councils licensing officer pointing out the implications of the PH serving Watford Station, the licensing officer has told Silverlink that any PH ranking up on the station forecourt will be prosecuted. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D It just gets better :D :D :D :D :D :D




what are they prosecuted for?

they can pick up on a telephone booking.

a cab firm opened an office on Todmorden station...................
then they put private hire on the fleet.


Plying for hire Geoffrey simple, they must be out of view of the public.




Never that ruling would be intolarable for taxis.

supposing I got a telephone pick up from a station outside my patch, is that plying for hire?

Jesus Nige what an own goal, you are not looking at this with any sense at all, this is not victory, its an act of treason, does that mean in no way can I pick up from the airport.?

look at it nige, look at it its a travesty.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:46 pm 
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Nidge wrote:
Hey Suspect you ain't heard the latest news have you??? Thompson's the T&G's Solicitors have written a stiff letter to Watford Councils licensing officer pointing out the implications of the PH serving Watford Station, the licensing officer has told Silverlink that any PH ranking up on the station forecourt will be prosecuted. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D It just gets better :D :D :D :D :D :D


Nigel do you really think the only people who have lawyers and barristers are the T&G.

Do you not think (silly question really) that the council may have a lawyer or barrister, that also knows a bit about licensing law?

If what is happening at Watford is illegal, it wont need your (not) so superb legal eagle to tell the council, they can work that our for themselves.

Why is it the only buffoons who believe the spin, are those that pay for it?

As for a stiff letter, cardboard was it? :wink:

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