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 Post subject: Re: Rape allegation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:32 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
gusmac wrote:
1 How long can the police continue to object to his application, considering he was never charged, let alone convicted of anything? He has no criminal record at all, not even an unpaid parking ticket!

The police will object all the time they know your mate will not challenge them in the courts. :-s

He must apply again, and if he gets refused get the reasons for the refusal and go to court over it.

I can't believe any proper court will refuse his appeal if the facts are what you say.

And I have no reason to doubt that, I would like to say. :wink:


I think Sussex is right on this issue, if your friend really does want his license back then I can't see many obstacles preventing him from obtaining it. Considering the facts are as you presented them?

Regards

JD

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 Post subject: Re: Rape allegation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:44 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
In the eyes of the law he is an innocent man.


Well innocent of the criminal offence of rape perhaps, but in the eyes of the law the committee has to decide merely on the balance of probabilities, thus in effect it's less difficult for the committee to find him 'guilty' of rape than a criminal court?

So are the police and council in effect claiming that he perpetrated a rape or are they just saying that having consensual sex with a passenger was unprofessional?

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 Post subject: Re: Rape allegation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:28 pm 
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TDO wrote:
gusmac wrote:
In the eyes of the law he is an innocent man.


Well innocent of the criminal offence of rape perhaps, but in the eyes of the law the committee has to decide merely on the balance of probabilities, thus in effect it's less difficult for the committee to find him 'guilty' of rape than a criminal court?


Quite correct.

Quote:
So are the police and council in effect claiming that he perpetrated a rape or are they just saying that having consensual sex with a passenger was unprofessional?


Assuming the act took place in the vehicle then they would have good grounds. Obviously the woman made an accusation of rape or attempted rape to which we don't know the circumstances but if the police thought there was no foundation to the charge why would they object to the license? Obviously they think there is a probability of foundation but cannot present evidence to substantiate that fact.

Section 6.2 of "The Human rights act" says,

Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

Considering the person in question wasn't charged then obviously that section doesn't apply but what does apply is the weight the council attach to the police report.

It is this report that the applicant is going to have to counter in order for a magistrate to overturn the decision of the council. What is in the report we do not know but the applicant at some stage will know. Apart from convincing a magistrate of his suitability, perhpas therein lies his remedy to the situation.

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:26 pm 
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The incident took place in a hall of residence, although he drove her there in his cab. The allegation of rape was made and later withdrawn. I get the impression the police were none to pleased about it.

Remember Scottish law applies here.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:46 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Remember Scottish law applies here.

Last time I looked Scotland was in the EU.

I hope, for other reasons, it hasn't been moved. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:03 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
The incident took place in a hall of residence, although he drove her there in his cab. The allegation of rape was made and later withdrawn. I get the impression the police were none to pleased about it.

Remember Scottish law applies here.


So basically this has nothing to do with what transpired in the normal course of a Taxi ride. One would assume that the journey ended when the fare was paid and the passenger left the Taxi. However we don't know the actual circumstances of the incident and it would be unwise to speculate on how the Taxi driver came to be inside the halls of residence if he wasn't invited?

If he was invited in to the halls of residence then you have to look at the reasons for the invite? Especially if the invite was late at night?

The only persons who know the truth to this matter are the two people involved in the incident and it appears to me that the more you tell us about the situation the more complicated it gets.

The bottom line is that councillors have to make a decision on whether passengers will be safe from drivers of taxis and when they are in possession of a letter from the police saying a person may not be fit and proper in that respect, then I suspect councillors will no doubt give careful thought to the contents.

It's a tough one but considering there was no charges brought and no prosecution then a Sheriff on reading the evidence might take a different view to that of the council.

Interesting case but not knowing all the facts it is hard to make judgment on which way it might go although I did initially say that he would probably have his license granted in the magistrates court based on the information you laid before us but it now appears the case might be a little more complicated than first perceived.

Regards

JD

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:26 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Remember Scottish law applies here.


I doubt if there are any differences relevant to the scenario you describe.

But we have Justices of the Peace up here instead of Magistrates, and I think they sit in the District Court.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:02 pm 
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Fae Fife wrote:
gusmac wrote:
Remember Scottish law applies here.


I doubt if there are any differences relevant to the scenario you describe.

But we have Justices of the Peace up here instead of Magistrates, and I think they sit in the District Court.
Yes, but any appeal would be heard by the sheriff court.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:57 pm 
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JD wrote:

So basically this has nothing to do with what transpired in the normal course of a Taxi ride. One would assume that the journey ended when the fare was paid and the passenger left the Taxi. However we don't know the actual circumstances of the incident and it would be unwise to speculate on how the Taxi driver came to be inside the halls of residence if he wasn't invited?

If he was invited in to the halls of residence then you have to look at the reasons for the invite? Especially if the invite was late at night?

The only persons who know the truth to this matter are the two people involved in the incident and it appears to me that the more you tell us about the situation the more complicated it gets.

The bottom line is that councillors have to make a decision on whether passengers will be safe from drivers of taxis and when they are in possession of a letter from the police saying a person may not be fit and proper in that respect, then I suspect councillors will no doubt give careful thought to the contents.

It's a tough one but considering there was no charges brought and no prosecution then a Sheriff on reading the evidence might take a different view to that of the council.

Interesting case but not knowing all the facts it is hard to make judgment on which way it might go although I did initially say that he would probably have his license granted in the magistrates court based on the information you laid before us but it now appears the case might be a little more complicated than first perceived.

Regards

JD
He was invited in and it was quite late at night. It is also a rule in the hall of residence that visitors are not permitted after a certain time at night (it was after this time). CCTV pictures showed her letting him in and later holding the door open for him, while he retrieved cigarettes from his cab. :? There is speculation that she made the whole thing up as a reason for breaking the visitor curfew, but who knows? She withdrew the allegation and didn't attend the council meeting.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:49 pm 
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Fae Fife wrote:
But we have Justices of the Peace up here instead of Magistrates, and I think they sit in the District Court.

I'm pretty certain we have JPs down here, but they sit in a magistrates court.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:05 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Fae Fife wrote:
But we have Justices of the Peace up here instead of Magistrates, and I think they sit in the District Court.

I'm pretty certain we have JPs down here, but they sit in a magistrates court.


They may be a similar beast, but with regard to the normal terminology used, "magistrate" is unknown up here and I think the term "justice of the peace" isn't well know down there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:10 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Fae Fife wrote:
gusmac wrote:
Remember Scottish law applies here.


I doubt if there are any differences relevant to the scenario you describe.

But we have Justices of the Peace up here instead of Magistrates, and I think they sit in the District Court.
Yes, but any appeal would be heard by the sheriff court.


What I meant was that the law and procedures may be different and use dissimilar terminology, but in substance what happens to your pal shouldn't really differ as regards whether it's up here or down there.

My point was merely aimed at JD's terminolgy rather than a comment on what the procedure would be, although I can see why people might have read something into what I said that wasn't intended, so thanks for outlining the correct procedure.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:55 am 
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gusmac wrote:
He was invited in and it was quite late at night. It is also a rule in the hall of residence that visitors are not permitted after a certain time at night (it was after this time). CCTV pictures showed her letting him in and later holding the door open for him, while he retrieved cigarettes from his cab. :? There is speculation that she made the whole thing up as a reason for breaking the visitor curfew, but who knows? She withdrew the allegation and didn't attend the council meeting.


So there was an allegation which was subsequently withdrawn but the police still wrote and advised the council that your colleague is not a fit and proper person to hold a license? In the interest of natural justice does your colleague have a copy of the police letter to which we assume the council relied on for their decision?

It would appear there was a degree of mutual attraction between the two parties would that be correct? Unless there was another reason for letting your colleague into the building.

Regards

JD

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:12 pm 
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JD wrote:
In the interest of natural justice does your colleague have a copy of the police letter to which we assume the council relied on for their decision?
I would assume so. I haven't seen it myself.
He has been reluctant in the past to challenge the council in court, since the whole business almost ended his marriage. He ended up going bankrupt as well. I am trying to persuade him that he should challenge this, as I did at the time, but he is worried that the publicity a court case would generate would open up old wounds with his wife, as well as cast him in a bad light with his children who were too young at the time to understand.
JD wrote:
It would appear there was a degree of mutual attraction between the two parties would that be correct?
I think you could safely say that.

Also the CCTV pictures showing her holding the door open for him while he went for the cigarettes, was just before he left. It strikes me as a strange thing for someone who has allegedly just been raped to do.

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