Taxi Driver Online

Taxi Talk magazine (31/3/2005)

Taxi Driver Online replies to a recent critical article by Derek Cummins, assistant editor of Taxi Talk magazine.

Mr Cummins used phrases such as 'bitter divide' and 'animosity and sheer hatred' to describe the debate surrounding derestriction of taxi numbers. Sadly, we cannot disagree with that, but he attributes this schism directly to derestriction. However, perhaps the issue is better looked at from a wider standpoint, since it is clearly the restriction of numbers initially that is the cause of the divide that Mr Cummins rightly refers to. Clearly, where a group of people are afforded privileged treatment, there will be understandable resentment from those not so treated, and discrimination is clearly regarded as undesirable in civilized societies, which is why legislation has been passed in the UK and in other countries to outlaw discrimination on certain grounds - in its response to the OFT the Government was clearly alluding to moral arguments of this type when it said that it was wrong 'in principle' to deny suitably qualified people a taxi vehicle license. But coming back to Mr Cummins' point, clearly when it is proposed to end preferential treatment there will be resentment from those affected - turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Clearly this is undesirable, put the source of the conflict is the implementation of restricted numbers in the first place, and that some object to their dismantling is hardly a reason not to.

However, Mr Cummins' main argument essentially amounts to an accusation of cynicism - when the 'wannaplates' get a plate then they suddenly 'go native' and become a 'gorraplate' and argue against further plates being issued. Mr Cummins is right to be cynical, but in essence his argument amounts to nothing more than saying that the gorraplates are as self-interested as the original plate holder group who managed to have restrictions put in place, and those who were subsequently instrumental in having them left in place. Unfortunately, this self-interest seems to represent the human condition, so it can hardly be used as an argument against the wannaplates, since the original plates were clearly handed out 'on demand' and then restricted, and it should therefore come as no surprise if the wannaplates act likewise.

Of course, these arguments are generalisations, since no two people will think in exactly the same manner, but our objection to the Taxi Talk argument is that it is made against Taxi Driver Online in particular.

We have in fact in the past been critical of the type of cynical attitude that Mr Cummins describes, so it's surprising that he should now make such an accusation. In our Myth and Reality document we said, at the top of page 54:

"The T&G cites several examples where numbers have been de-restricted then re-restricted again. While whether or not the plate cartels have been in operation on an interrupted basis or not does not really seem relevant to the debate, one point worth noting is the ‘drawbridge mentality’ that often afflicts those outside the cartel when they are granted a plate – the ‘too many taxis’ mantra then becomes their guiding principle. Thus there is obviously some pressure in restricted locations to de-restrict, but when this happens at that moment in time there is no one outside the cartel wanting in, thus the drawbridge mentality is more likely to prevail at this time, and the cartel may be re-established."

Of course, it should also be pointed out, without appearing to state the obvious, that the Taxi Driver Online has never argued for the selective issue of plates or for the clearly ludicrous policy of derestriction immediately followed by re-restriction. Moreover, if this site's position on restricted numbers changes in the future in the cynical way described by Mr Cummins then it should go without saying that Taxi Driver Online would be left with little in the way of credibility on the issue

However, Mr Cummins himself should be well aware of the kind of cynical self-interest that he now criticises. Around a year ago the editor of Taxi Talk argued:

"Delimitation took place on Wirral in February 2002, apart from some honourable exceptions Wirral received no support whatsoever, in fact it was worse than that, other areas seemed to think it was a big joke. The two individuals, Derek Cummins and Mark Royden who headed the fight and indeed myself, as already mentioned never tired of warning the cab trade that something was afoot and that the trade should start to campaign sooner rather than later."

No one should need reminding that it was the wannaplate Mr Royden who received a plate in the still restricted Wirral, but subsequent to becoming a gorraplate objected to others being given the same opportunity and launched the well known legal action.

So perhaps Mr Cummins' criticism derives more from the first hand experience of his colleagues rather than more general evidence, but as was stated further up this article, he is right to be cynical in any case.

But even if Mr Cummins' argument did hold any water in relation to Taxi Driver Online, then it would still be slightly less cynical than in Mr Royden's case, since even if both we and Mr Royden 'went gorraplate' after receiving a taxi license, at least we have argued the case for derestriction and thus plates for all those who want one and are suitably qualified, which has clearly never been the case with Mr Royden.

Of course, it would be disingenuous of us to claim that none of those associated with the ownership of this site have an interest in being granted a taxi plate, but on the other hand the lead author of Myth and Reality is a taxi plate holder in an unrestricted area.

Taxi Driver Online will never make the case for restricted taxi numbers.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

T.D.O.
Are you just thick or just playing at being being thick.the wannabe articly was in the feb issue of taxitalk,I give up journalist...you need to think of taking up another profession, the way you get things wrong and make assunptions ,if I was you I would apply for a job at the o. f. t. mr T

Where did it say that the article wasn't in Feb's Taxi'talk'?

The date at the top is the date of TDO's response.

All that aside, why does it matter when TDO's piece was written? You either agree with it, or you don't. And if you don't then tell him why you don't.

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IDFIMH

I refer you to the comments made by Sussex a few moments ago.

Good things come to those who wait

By the way, your comments are bordering on the abusive, so please have a look at the new rules on 'TDO administration'.

But I'll let you off this time, given the irony of the remarks, and the fact that you may not have read the new rules yet

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Is there an echo around here?

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IDFIMH

I’ve decided to use my real name given that TDO wrote a response to my article. I’m Derek Cummins and I’m the Chair of the T&G Wirral taxi branch, and Mark Royden is the Branch Secretary. Firstly I’d like to say that I’m neither a ‘gorraplate’ nor a ‘wannaplate’ but an ‘adderplae’ and certainly don’t want another one, despite my bank manager pleading with me to take £25000 off his hands for a new cab.

Secondly to clear the Mark Royden issue up, Mark was issued a plate under Wirral’s managed growth policy which we are both in favour of, but we are totally opposed to the free-for-all of outright delimitation, which is in line with T&G national policy, so to state that he’s a wannaplate is misleading.

To reiterate, I’ve now worked in 2 authorities that have been delimited, and I know or know of hundreds of drivers who have received a plate, and NOT ONE of them have said that the issue should be opened indefinitely, that is when they have received their plate. However prior to being issued with a plate they sounded just like you, arguing passionately that all areas of the borough need to be covered and if they was issued with a plate, they would work the arable patch of farming land on the outskirts that is shamefully neglected by the cosy cartel etc. etc.

A case in point is a private hire trade rep that received a plate in the same tranche as Mark Royden, and immediately sold it for £16K; to protect his identity we shall call him Garry Baldi. Now Garry continued to sit on the taxi& private hire sub committee except that he never put anything on the agenda abut private hire, instead he would sit there and argue passionately that total delimitation of the taxi trade was needed, obviously because he had made 16K and obviously enjoyed the experience, he wanted to experience it all again.

There’s an old Liverpool saying that’s sadly fallen out of use, ‘act soft and I’ll buy you a coalyard’ and obviously Garry was acting very soft, with a straight face and a burning intensity he told the gullible councillors that in Heswall and Caldy (very affluent suburbs of Wirral) there was no taxi coverage deregulation was the only answer to provide competition etc. etc.-very taxidriver online, and I had to sit there fruitlessly denouncing him that all he wanted was another windfall. To which he’d reply (in TDOesque fashion) delimitation would stop a value on plates, and it was obscene that people were making vast profits by-passing the council coffers etc etc- yes he knew how to push all the right buttons

Delimitation came and Garry duly got his plate and did he work the areas he argued so passionately that should be covered and were not being covered because of the council’s short-sighted policies? Get the f@*&k out of it! He worked the traditional ranks like all of us (in fact like the ones you work) he has since sold it at a slight profit with the epitaph “ It doesn’t look like they(the council) are going to put the cap back on” not exactly a coalyard maybe a little scuttle. So what was Garry up to? He was up to the same thing you’re up to! Because you, me, Garry and every other taxi driver know something that people outside the trade, no matter how clever they are or think they are, doesn’t know-where are you going to put the extra cabs.

Because this is our day job, we understand the MO of taxi drivers that they gravitate to popular ranks, so much so that the popular ranks will be bursting at the seams most times of the day and at slow times there will be some over ranking, remove the numerical limit and that limited over ranking will become a major problem. Now the popular rank(s) in your area will be in a built up area with limited space to add more ranks. This will mean that taxis will start forming illegal feeder ranks that spill into crossings, prime parking sites loading bays etc.

This then involves the police who will issue tickets but as soon as they disappear the rank will form again, in a bid to keep the Queens highway clear the police will then have to assign officers almost permanently to ranks. The police in turn will make representations to the besieged councillors to ‘sort it out now’ The councillors then have a choice, to cede prime(and these days income generating) parking sites for extra ranks which still won’t solve the problem because they’re still rolling off the assembly line, or re-impose numerical limits. It’s a no-brainer isn’t it?

Now I know that, you know that, Garry knew that, so why are you strangely silent about this inevitable outcome of delimitation? Let’s talk about the hidden agenda; Manchester plates are changing hands at say, £20K now you don’t want to pay that much but you’d like one because it tantamount to somebody bunging you 20 large. Push for a policy of delimitation, none of this managed growth nonsense-it takes too long. When the floodgates open, get in early and wait for the resulting chaos around the city centre to close the issue, and then you walk away Garry Baldi like with £20K! lavlee jablee!

If you don’t believe me, read the Chief Constable of Merseyside’s report of 1983 to the council he complained that there was 1220 cabs and 340 ranking spaces and that “ it is equally apparent that no matter what level of enforcement is pursued, the problems associated with over ranking will remain until this imbalance is corrected”

The good news boys is that there’s an all lot of low calibre, gullible people in local authorities, so just keep at ‘em, the coalyard is well and truly in sight

T.D.O.& SUSSEX
GOOD LAD IS DEREK.........mrT ....

Awfully nice to see you Mr Cummins, although I think you will find the french tend to use the term 'nom de guerre'

Captain cab

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Great words from decent hard working man.

Isn't this 'managed growth' policy called the law of the land? In other words how many areas do you know that volunteer plates without the need of a survey?

Please also remind me where in the court case the 'free for all' issue was argued.

From my reading the case it dealt with two main issues. The first being the proceedures that Wirral council took. Were they correct, or were they flawed? The judge decided that the council's proceedures were lawful.

The second main issue didn't concern the 'free for all' of delimitation, it concerned Mr Royden fighting to keep his plate value. This is the plate value he got for nothing a year or so previous.

I can't believe that any fair minded person would support that.

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IDFIMH

Thanks for the information on your personal situation Mr Cummins, but I should make it clear, lest anyone should think otherwise in view of the fact that you furnished the information, that our response made no mention of your personal situation with regard to proprietorship of a taxi.

As regards your slightly barbed allusion to anonymity, I always wonder why neither you as assistant editor nor Mr Millward as editor of Taxi Talk ever make any comment on the anonymous contributions to your magazine? For example, in the latest edition there are contributions from 'Name and Address supplied' (2), The Countess Bartelli, the 'Open Letter' to LAs is unattributed, and of course a regular contributor to your magazine is the now infamous 'Reiver', yet your column does not mention the fact that we are not provided with the name of the authors.

Not that we have a problem with anonymity (which should go without saying!), but there does seem to be a bit of double standards in your approach.

As regards the issue in general, we prefer people to say what they really think, and our experience of the trade suggests to us that a lot of people do not like to speak their mind publicly, particularly when this goes against the prevailing orthodoxy.

However, even one of your main articles this month (namely the 'Open Letter') is anything but unorthodox, but is still unattributed, which perhaps says a lot about free speech in the trade.




So what you're saying is that Mr Royden was more self-serving than a 'wannaplate'? So what is your terminology for this?A 'wannaplatejustformyselfandnooneelsesothatitattainsanimmediatevalue'?

I suppose that reading your original piece your terminology was a bit vague (I read 'wannaplate' to be the vernacular contraction of 'I want a plate'), in which case this doesn't differentiate between those who want a plate just for themselves and no others, and those who wants plates for all those suitably qualified. Indeed, looking at your original piece again, I would say that the term 'wannaplate' seems more appropriate for the Roydenesque ethos, and perhaps you should have used something like 'wanplatesforall' for the scenario that you attributed wannaplatism to.

As for the 'managed growth' policy, isn't this just T&G spin for LAs adhering to the smallest amount of plates that must be issued to comply with the law? How many LAs issue more than this? Even in areas operating these policies, the main growth seems to be in plate premiums, which certainly seems to far outstrip growth in taxi numbers.



So are they saying this just just because they are expected to or did they genuinely mean it? If so then I think it's a sad indictment on the trade that all should be so self-serving. I wouldn't disagree that a majority, or even the vast majority of plate holders think this way, but I know it's not all.

But it's hardly surprising that people think this way, after all, there's that old saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth - question to aspiring plate holder, 'do you want one for nothing that will immediately be worth tens of thousands of pounds, or, at worst, one for nothing that will be worth thousands in years to come if we pull the drawbridge up again?' It's a bit like asking 'do you want twenty grand for nothing', which is clearly a no-brainer.

In my unrestricted LA restriction is obviously a matter that comes up occassionaly. I said to one driver, for example, 'OK but do you think it's fair that you got the plate for nothing but that future drivers will have to pay for a plate or drive for a current plate holder?' 'Yes', he replied, 'but....'

I think the point is that this attitude perhaps represents the human condition, but the further point is that it should not be the job of government to accede to such demands, indeed they clearly don't over the vast majority of the economy more generally.

Adam Smith's famous dictum always comes to mind when I think of this, and the point is that the job of government is to resist such impetuses, not to kow tow to them:

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."



If he was arguing for total delimitation then presumably he wouldn't be experience the same thing all over again?

But in any case, I'm not sure why you are providing evidence of people's cynicism, since we agreed with you and indeed have pointed out this cynicism in the past.

If you don't want to believe that we are not similarly cynical then that's up to you, but again the question shouldn't be whether or not there are self-serving people in the world, but whether government should be allowed to facilitate this? In other words, the question is one that you haven't really addressed yet - is restriction of taxi numbers fair on either those outside the taxi plate holder group or the public?



Again, I don't disagree that people are cynical, but the question is, why should the council play to your tune and not to other people's?

And how did Gary manage to sell his plate at a slight profit?

As for the issue of serving neglected areas, yes I agree that there's a certain sheep-like mentality in the trade, but the source of the problem is often that the markets have been so distorted for so long that they take time to adjust and indeed may never readjust properly to what would have taken place if the market hadn't been distroted in the first place.




I know rank space is a problem, but it always is, and I don't think it's an excuse for plates worth £50k (say). If space for ranks is limited then if LAs were really concerned with the public then they would keep a lid on fares and/or raise the bar quality-wise to get into the trade.

For example, in my manor there's a chronic problem numbers-wise as regards the ranks (but because it's small town/semi-rural) it doesn't impact quite so much as it would in a large city), but most drivers are part-time, and there are around three to each car, and 90% of the owners have no problem hiring them, have no probelm hiring more, and some of the few who don't hire them only don't because they can't get drivers.




More like £50k in Manchester.



Perhaps it's not surprising that Liverpool was a disaster area taxi wise, since it was a disaster area economically [at that time of recession], so it's not surprising that consumer demand was low, and entry to the cab trade high, thus leading to chaos.

How many drivers were there in those days, and how many were there in each taxi? Two or three at least, I would say, so if plate holders were that concerned about rank space, why were they so keen to take on drivers?

But since Liverpool was closed off, how many of the plates have been handed in, which presumably might have been expected if economic circumstances were so bad at the time?

None, at a rough guess, because they knew it would be worth something if they held onto it.

How many people who have been granted a taxi driver's badge have been unable to find a job driving a taxi in Liverpool since then?

None, I would imagine.

And if rank space in Liverpool is such a problem then why is anyone gaining a taxi driver's badge welcomed into the trade with open arms?

Indeed, why did Liverpool CC complain last year about not enough drivers entering the trade, and was consequently helping plate holders recruit more drivers?

I'll tell you why, pure and simply, it's because it lines the pockets of plate holders, and the rank space problem isn't an issue in that case!



Quite right, but I think that's the reason that restricted numbers were imposed in the first place!

Anyway, thanks for your swift and generally civilised response to our article

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Do you do novels too TDO? perhaps a paperback version is available

& hows the reiver infamous now?

Captain cab

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

I think the Reiver is infamous/famous for telling people what they don't really want to hear i.e. the truth.

A bit like Taxi Driver Online in my most honest opinion.

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IDFIMH

I think the reiver just picks on anyone he / she chooses, and if your caught in the crossfire, so be it

Captain cab

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin