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Baby expert stamps her foot at website chat
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Author:  captain cab [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 

Baby expert stamps her foot at website chat


Gina Ford, the baby expert whose advice is either loved or loathed by parents, has demanded the closure of a popular internet site for mothers after it published what she claims to be defamatory comments about her.


The author of The Contented Little Baby Book, who is known as the Queen of Routine for her attempts to introduce structure to the lives of new parents and their babies, called comments from members a "gross personal attack" on her character and reputation.

Her lawyers have written to DSC, the company that hosts mumsnet.com, demanding that it disables the website with immediate effect.

Lawyers for the site, which receives up to 10,000 posts a day from mothers, say threatened legal action is a blow to free speech and "wholly disproportionate". Mark Stephens, a lawyer specialising in defamation and internet law, said yesterday it would prove an interesting test case.

"There has been a fairly direct discussion about Gina Ford and her methods, to which she objected," he said.

"Mumsnet was entirely happy under its abuse policy to remove the offending postings. Her lawyers' response has been disproportionate, however, in requesting entire threads of conversations between users be removed, rather than the offending comment, which means, effectively 350 people's voices are being silenced.

"To ask for the whole site to be disabled seems wholly disproportionate. Not only is it a blow for free speech, it is a blow for mothers."

Ford's lawyers first contacted Mumsnet in January after the website published an interview with her that attracted some negative postings from members.

Mumsnet removed the interview but, in April, Ford's lawyers, Foot Anstey, made further demands, including the monitoring of all posts relating to the author. Mumsnet agreed but refused to pay damages.

Last week, the lawyers complained again about further defamatory postings, which were immediately removed, before writing to the host company requesting the closure of the site.

"We feel deeply sad and frustrated," said Justine Roberts, the site's co-founder. "We have done everything we can to meet their various demands, but how can we pre-vet everything when we have 10,000 posts a day? We cannot be absolutely sure the odd comment does not slip in.

"It seems to me the law is an ass and that it allows people with deep pockets to shut down huge websites."

Mumsnet is now asking its members to stop discussing Ford, her methods or her books on its talk boards.

A statement on the website reads: "It is a surreal and rather sad moment. Surreal because, whatever you feel about her, Gina Ford is one of Britain's most respected authorities on raising babies - banning all mention of her on a website is a bit like barring discussion of Manchester United from a football phone-in. Sad because Ms Ford has plenty of fans both among Mumsnet members and here at Mumsnet HQ, indeed she was for some time a member and contributor to the site."

Mr Stephens believes the law should be changed to allow more protection for internet publishers. The Law Commission has been considering reform in this area.

In America, chatroom hosts are seen not as publishers but as "innocent disseminators". Unlike in Britain, the burden of proof rests with the person claiming defamation, rather than the publisher or the individual posting a comment.

"What we need is protection for websites to have open debate," Mr Stephens said.

"If you choose not to take action against an individual who has posted a comment about you, but then choose to take action against the website itself, you are stifling debate by preventing anyone from posting. Websites cannot be liable in this way."

Ford and her lawyers were not available for comment.

Author:  JD [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:30 am ]
Post subject: 

captain cab wrote:
Baby expert stamps her foot at website chat


The law on defamation is quite clear and this post is in the wrong thread, we already have several threads on defamation but this is not one of them. Under the circumstances I'm sure you won't mind it being moved to the appropriate thread.

Regards

JD

Author:  captain cab [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
The law on defamation is quite clear and this post is in the wrong thread, we already have several threads on defamation but this is not one of them. Under the circumstances I'm sure you won't mind it being moved to the appropriate thread.

Regards

JD


No problem at all JD, if you could arrange that it would be appreciated.

regards

CC

Author:  TDO [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

So are you trying to draw some inference here Captain?

Perhaps you could be more specific - in particular, has anything been removed from the site that may have been the foundation for your allusion?

I'll think you'll find the answer is no! :D

The downtime was not the fault of TDO, more a minor problem that took longer than anticipated to resolve, primarily due to the weekend getting in the way. But now everything is back to precisely what it was before the problem, don't you agree?

And for the avoidance of doubt, the only complaint of defamation we've ever had was in relation to a post made by a Nigel Marchant, which we duly removed.

Nigel Marchant, that is, who runs a taxi forum jointly with, err remind us who Captain? :wink:

Author:  TDO [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

JD wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Baby expert stamps her foot at website chat


The law on defamation is quite clear and this post is in the wrong thread, we already have several threads on defamation but this is not one of them. Under the circumstances I'm sure you won't mind it being moved to the appropriate thread.

Regards

JD


Well, I don't know, it at least gives TDO a chance to clarify the situation, and unless CC has anything to add then it reflects a bit more on him than this site. :lol:

Author:  TDO [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

And, of course, there are grounds for an action in defamtion with regard to innuendo Captain :wink: :lol:

Author:  captain cab [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
So are you trying to draw some inference here Captain?


Me? Now would I do such a thing, you know I love you guys :lol:

CC

Author:  JD [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

Online Defamation is no different than any other type of defamation and if a person is so defamed then they have the right to take legal action, not only against the person who caused the defamation but also against anyone who knowingly published the defamation.

The case which came to light today regarding the mums website is just one of many actions that continue to be taken against websites and chat forums that have allegedly published defamatory or libel content. I can list many websites that have been pulled on the word of an alleged victim but such action sometimes has a negative effect because all that happens is that the defamation and the website are mirrored in countries outside the jurisdiction of the victim.

There are hundreds of cases relating to defamation and libel but the first case in this country involving the Internet, was that of Godfrey v Demon Internet. Since Godfrey set the ball rolling back in 1999 there have been several other Internet cases

Dr Godfrey alleged Demon Internet failed to remove defamatory material from a newsgroup, Demon defended the action and lost.

Damages in such cases are not automatic and a defamed person will no doubt have to show that the particular libel or defamation had damaged their reputation or business? So before launching yourself into litigation you better make sure that your action will not leave you out of pocket even if you win your case?

In a landmark ruling last year, the Court of Appeal ruled that internet publishers could not be sued in the English courts unless there had been a “substantial” publication in England. The ruling came in an action brought by Yousef Jameel, a Saudi Arabian who sought to sue the United States-based Dow Jones, the publisher of The Wall Street Journal, in London.

The case was appealed to the House of Lords in June this year and we now await their decision. In the meantime, if anyone is interested in such cases they may wish to read the following links in respect of defamation comment and related court cases.

"No win no fee" is a service many aggrieved parties are finding favour and has made many publishers think twice about defending such cases. The recent case of former Scottish Socialist Party leader Tommy Sheridan who successfully won a ruling against the News of the World is highlighted below. There is also a link to a Times article regarding "No Win no fee" plus several cases of importance in respect of defamation or libel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/stor ... 97,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 56,00.html

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... 9/240.html

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2006/989.html

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... /1756.html

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... /1614.html

Author:  JD [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

And yet even more evidence of Newspapers and journalists falling foul of our Libel laws.
................................................................

PAUL MCKENNA v MGN LTD (2006)

[2006] EWHC 1996 (QB)

QBD (Eady J) 28/7/2006

DEFAMATION - EDUCATION - MEDIA AND ENTERTAINMENT - MENTAL HEALTH

ACCREDITATION : DEGREES : HYPNOSIS : JUSTIFICATION : LIBEL : PRESS : PUBLICATION OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLE : BOGUS DEGREES : JUSTIFICATION OF STING OF WORDS : HYPNOTHERAPY : ACCREDITATION OF UNIVERSITIES

A newspaper article, the meaning of which was that a hypnotherapist claimed publicly to possess a doctoral degree in his subject whilst knowing that the degree was "bogus", was libellous, as the degree could not be described as bogus and the hypnotherapist had not sought to deceive anyone by making reference to it or permitting others to do so.


The claimant hypnotherapist (M) brought a claim for libel in respect of an article in a newspaper published by the respondent newspaper group. M had obtained a post-graduate doctoral degree in hypnotherapy from an institution in Louisiana in the United States known at material times as the La Salle University (La Salle). At the time M did so, the president of La Salle pleaded guilty to charges of fraudulently misleading students into believing that the institution was accredited for the granting of degrees when it was not so accredited. The article complained of referred to M's degree as "bogus", and alleged that La Salle degrees could be obtained merely in exchange for the payment of money. The meaning of the words in the article was that M had fraudulently boasted in his publicity material that he had a degree at doctoral level whilst knowing full well that it was bogus, since he had obtained his degree from the La Salle by post and simply in return for money. M submitted that any perceived lack of academic rigour at La Salle could not, without more, be probative of dishonesty on his part.

HELD: On the evidence, M had been granted a degree by La Salle for what it was worth. Opinions on that worth clearly differed, but M valued the degree and had not been seeking to deceive anyone by making reference to it himself or permitting others to do so. Accordingly, the respondent had not discharged the burden of proving that the sting of the words complained of was substantially true. M was not dishonest, and whatever one might think of the academic quality of M's work, it was not accurate to describe the degree as bogus. It had certainly not been granted merely for, or in effect for, money.

Judgment for claimant.

Counsel:
For the claimant: Desmond Browne QC, Manuel Barca
For the defendant: John Kelsey-Fry QC, Catrin Evans

Solicitors:
For the claimant: Swan Turton
For the defendant: Davenport Lyons
........................................................

Author:  JD [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

This case is referred to in many cases of defamtion.
.........................................................................

ALBERT REYNOLDS (Respondent) v (1) TIMES NEWSPAPERS LTD (2) ALAN RUDDOCK (3) JOHN WITHEROW (Appellants) (1999)

HL (Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, Lord Steyn, Lord Cooke of Thorndon, Lord Hope of Craighead, Lord Hobhouse of Woodborough) 28/10/99

DEFAMATION - CIVIL PROCEDURE - COSTS - HUMAN RIGHTS - MEDIA AND ENTERTAINMENT

LIBEL : PUBLISHING : NEWSPAPERS : ARTICLES : PUBLICATION OF MISSTATEMENTS : DEFENCE : PROOF OF ACTUAL MALICE : QUALIFIED PRIVILEGE : NEW CATEGORY : PRIVILEGE DERIVED FROM SUBJECT MATTER : GENERIC PRIVILEGE : GOVERNMENT AND POLITICAL MATTERS : POLITICAL SPEECH : POLITICAL INFORMATION : DUTY TEST : INTEREST TEST : CIRCUMSTANTIAL TEST : PRESS FREEDOM : FREEDOM OF SPEECH : PROTECTION OF REPUTATION : JUDGE'S DIRECTION : MISDIRECTION TO JURY : FAIR TRIAL : PROPER BALANCE : COSTS : CIVIL LIBERTIES : PUBLIC INTEREST : IRELAND


"Political information" was not to be adopted as a new "subject-matter" category of qualified privilege. In deciding whether an occasion was privileged there was no "circumstantial test" separate from, and additional to, the conventional duty-interest questions which required the court to consider, among other matters, the nature, status and source of the material published and the circumstances of the publication.

Defendants' appeal against that part of the decision of the Court of Appeal which held that: (i) the defence of qualified privilege was not available in respect of the publication of political information; and (ii) the existing tests were still to be applied, including the circumstantial test as to whether the nature, status and source of the material published, and the circumstances of the publication, were such that, in the public interest, the publication should be protected by privilege in the absence of proof of actual malice. The plaintiff, the former Taioseach and leader of Fianna Fail, complained of an article published in the mainland edition of the Sunday Times in November 1994 about the political crisis in Ireland and the political circumstances leading to the plaintiff's resignation from both offices. The meaning complained of was that the plaintiff had deliberately and dishonestly misled the Irish Dail and colleagues within the coalition government.

The action was tried by French J and a jury in late 1996. The issues at the trial were: the meaning of the article, qualified privilege at common law, justification, malice and damages. During the trial the defendants abandoned pleaded defences that the words were fair comment on a matter of public interest and that they were a fair and accurate report of proceedings in public of the Irish legislature. The jury decided that the defamatory allegation of which the plaintiff complained was not true, so the defence of justification failed. The jury decided that the second defendant was not acting maliciously in writing and publishing the words complained of, nor was the third defendant. Thus, if the occasion was privileged, which was a question for the judge, the defence of qualified privilege would succeed. Despite their rejection of the defence of justification, the jury awarded the plaintiff no damages.

The judge substituted an award of one penny. In the light of this nil award, costs were the only remaining issue. On this, the defence of qualified privilege was still a live question. If this defence was available to the defendants, they had a complete defence to the action, and the judge would have ordered the plaintiff to pay the defendants' costs of the action. The judge then heard submissions on the question of qualified privilege. The defendants unsuccessfully contended for a wide qualified privilege at common law for "political speech". The judge ruled that publication of the article was not privileged. The plaintiff appealed, contending that the judge had misdirected the jury in certain respects.

The defendants cross-appealed against the judge's decision on the qualified privilege point. The Court of Appeal allowed the plaintiff's appeal. It concluded that the misdirections identified by the court were, cumulatively, such as to deny the plaintiff a fair trial of his claim. It set aside the verdict, finding and judgment of the court below and ordered a new trial. The Court of Appeal also considered whether the defendants would be able to rely on qualified privilege at the retrial, and held they would not. Leave was given to the defendants to appeal against this ruling, since it raised an issue of public importance. On this appeal the defendants therefore argued for an incremental development of the common law by the creation of a new category of occasion when privilege derived from the subject matter alone, namely "political information", ie information, opinion and arguments concerning government and political matters which affected the people of the United Kingdom.

HELD (Lords Steyn and Hope dissenting): (1) The established common law approach to misstatements of fact remained essentially sound. The common law should not develop "political information" as a new "subject-matter" category of qualified privilege, whereby the publication of all such information would attract qualified privilege, whatever the circumstances.

That would not provide adequate protection for reputation. Moreover, it would be unsound in principle to distinguish political discussion from discussion of other matters of serious public concern. The elasticity of the common law principle enabled interference with freedom of speech to be confined to what was necessary in the circumstances of the case.

That elasticity enabled the court to give appropriate weight, in today's conditions, to the importance of freedom of expression by the media on all matters of public concern. Per Lord Nicholls, the matters to be taken into account included (the list was not exhaustive): (i) the seriousness of the allegation; (ii) the nature of the information and the extent to which it was of public concern; (iii) the source of the information; (iv) the steps taken to verify the information; (v) the status of the information; (vi) the urgency of the matter; (vii) whether comment was sought from the defendant; (viii) whether the article contained the gist of the plaintiff's side of the story; (ix) the tone of the article; and (x) the circumstances of the publication, including timing.

Above all, the court was to have particular regard to the importance of freedom of expression. The court should be slow to conclude that a publication was not in the public interest, especially when the information was in the field of political discussion. Doubts should be resolved in favour of publication. (2) As to the supposed circumstantial test, the Court of Appeal had highlighted that, in deciding whether an occasion was privileged, the court should consider, among other matters, the nature, status and source of the material published and the circumstances of the publication. In stressing the importance of these particular factors, the court treated them as matters going to a question separate from, and additional to, the conventional duty-interest questions. This formulation of three questions gave rise to conceptual and practical difficulties and was better avoided.

There was no separate or additional question. These factors were to be taken into account in determining whether the duty-interest test was satisfied or, put in a simpler and more direct way, whether the public was entitled to know the particular information. The duty-interest test, or the right to know test, could not be carried out in isolation from these factors and without regard to them. A claim to privilege stood or fell according to whether the claim passed or failed that test. There was no further requirement.

Appeal dismissed.

Lord Lester QC, James Price QC and Pushpinder Saini instructed by Theodore Goddard for the appellants. Andrew Caldecott QC and Benjamin Hinchcliff instructed by Crockers Oswald Hickson for the repondent.

Author:  JD [ Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

JD wrote:


In a landmark ruling last year, the Court of Appeal ruled that internet publishers could not be sued in the English courts unless there had been a “substantial” publication in England. The ruling came in an action brought by Yousef Jameel, a Saudi Arabian who sought to sue the United States-based Dow Jones, the publisher of The Wall Street Journal, in London.

The case was appealed to the House of Lords in June this year and we now await their decision. In the meantime, if anyone is interested in such cases they may wish to read the following links in respect of defamation comment and related court cases.


The House of Lords ruling in the Jameel case as I mentioned above has now been delivered. It makes very interesting reading for those journalists who write serious and investigative articles. Those journalists who intentionally depart from the facts and who's only aim is to sensationalise an article, are the ones who will suffer most from this ruling.

A clear distinction has now been made between honest neutral and measured journalism and that of sensationalism. Honest journalism will afford some protection from defamation and libel while other types of journalism may not.

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2006/44.html

This ruling sets a precedent and sets aside the appeal court ruling I mentioned above.

Regards

JD

Author:  GA [ Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

and I thought this was a taxi forum

Author:  JD [ Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

GA wrote:
and I thought this was a taxi forum


We can't stop you from thinking but as long as that's all you do, the world is a safer place. lol

JD

Author:  GA [ Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:02 am ]
Post subject: 

JD wrote:
GA wrote:
and I thought this was a taxi forum


We can't stop you from thinking but as long as that's all you do, the world is a safer place. lol

JD


Fortunatly for us all you can do is think and talk ................... for if you were to be capable of effecting positive change you would have to review your attitude.

B. Lucky :D

Author:  GBC [ Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

captain cab wrote:
Baby expert stamps her foot at website chat


Gina Ford, the baby expert whose advice is either loved or loathed by parents, has demanded the closure of a popular internet site for mothers after it published what she claims to be defamatory comments about her.





Terry must be due me about £50K by now. :D

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