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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:47 pm 
mancityfan wrote:
send to the director of your council


Licensing of Hackney Carriages and Private Hire Vehicles, their drivers and Operators.

Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976.
Section 70 - Fees and Charges.


Enquiry submitted under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

Information requested from the Council to allow Nigel to consider the current scale of fees and charges by reference to the costs chargeable by the Council to the Cost Centre(s) covering the licensing of Taxis.

I ask the Council to provide the following information at the earliest opportunity:-


a) Please provide a copy of any report submitted by Licensing officers to the Head of Function or any Council body to request authority to implement the most recently revised scale of fees.

b) Please provide a copy of the financial estimates for the operation of the Taxi Licensing function for 2008/09.

c) Please provide details of the number of vehicle licenses, driver licenses and operator licenses the Council envisages issuing in the current year.

d) Please provide a copy of the Job description of each member of staff wholly or partly employed in the carrying out of the vehicle, driver and operator licensing function. For staff not wholly employed on such activity please advise the percentage of time charged to the taxi and non-taxi activity in their job descriptions.

e) Please advise details of the staff and management structure in respect of taxi licensing.

f) Please advise details of staff costs charged directly to the licensing account
NB. I only request details of the posts and the aggregated total annual forecast cost including all Employer’s on-costs.




g) Please provide a copy of the Subjective Cost Centre(s) Budget(s) for taxi licensing activity showing the estimated costs and income for 2008/09 against each relevant nominal ledger code. Please also supply a copy of the year to date outturn to the last available accounting period and any forecast outturn for the current financial year.

h) Please provide details of how recovery of corporate overhead and any other indirect or apportioned charges are calculated for the Taxi Licensing Subjective cost centre(s).

i) Please advise, under the Council’s Constitution and scheme of delegation, which
Cabinet member(s) and Officers have responsibility for the determination of the
Council’s policies and practice in respect of any matters relating to its powers
under the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 and The Local Government
(Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976.


Are you trying to make me Mr popular at the Council?? 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:57 pm 
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They have been walking over you for yrs,its time to stand up,if you dont want to be popular then dont moan,its better to do it through an association,I assume you have one,or you could form one.Or put the request in a friends name if your scared. I made an error with the date on b) it should be 2010/11
Which council are you licensed with?
perhaps taxi driver online can request the info for you
i dont mind chipping in a fiver for a good cause


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:23 pm 
mancityfan wrote:
They have been walking over you for yrs,its time to stand up,if you dont want to be popular then dont moan,its better to do it through an association,I assume you have one,or you could form one.Or put the request in a friends name if your scared. I made an error with the date on b) it should be 2010/11
Which council are you licensed with?
perhaps taxi driver online can request the info for you
i dont mind chipping in a fiver for a good cause


It's in the envelope with a stamp waiting to be posted in the morning. :D :D Cheers for the advice it's much appreciated.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Location: Hampshire
mancityfan wrote:

It has been established in a number of cases before the courts that a Council may not derive a profit or surplus from such licensing activity.



Can anyone tell me if any of these cases specifically related to taxi licences please? If so, the case name would be greatly appreciated.

I am currently challenging my local authority over 'profiteering' from our fees.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Rob P wrote:
mancityfan wrote:
It has been established in a number of cases before the courts that a Council may not derive a profit or surplus from such licensing activity.

Can anyone tell me if any of these cases specifically related to taxi licences please? If so, the case name would be greatly appreciated.

I am currently challenging my local authority over 'profiteering' from our fees.

Involve the District Auditor, he will know the law on licensing fees & covering costs only.

That's what we did in Brum many years ago & had a rebate into the licensing fund of £368K if my memory still serves me correctly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Rob P wrote:
mancityfan wrote:

It has been established in a number of cases before the courts that a Council may not derive a profit or surplus from such licensing activity.



Can anyone tell me if any of these cases specifically related to taxi licences please? If so, the case name would be greatly appreciated.

I am currently challenging my local authority over 'profiteering' from our fees.


I'm not aware of any directly related cases; but that doesnt matter as the wording in the 1976 act is specific;

53 Drivers’ licences for hackney carriages and private hire vehicles

(2)Notwithstanding the provisions of the Act of 1847, a district council may demand and recover for the grant to any person of a licence to drive a hackney carriage, or a private hire vehicle, as the case may be, such a fee as they consider reasonable with a view to recovering the costs of issue and administration and may remit the whole or part of the fee in respect of a private hire vehicle in any case in which they think it appropriate to do so.

70 Fees for vehicle and operators’ licences.

(1)Subject to the provisions of subsection

(2) of this section, a district council may charge such fees for the grant of vehicle and operators’ licences as may be resolved by them from time to time and as may be sufficient in the aggregate to cover in whole or in part—.

(a)the reasonable cost of the carrying out by or on behalf of the district council of inspections of hackney carriages and private hire vehicles for the purpose of determining whether any such licence should be granted or renewed;.

(b)the reasonable cost of providing hackney carriage stands; and.

(c)any reasonable administrative or other costs in connection with the foregoing and with the control and supervision of hackney carriages and private hire vehicles.

CC

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:49 pm 
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Thanks Brummie Cabbie and Captain Cab for your prompt replies.

Having done extensive research I haven't found such a case so I guess it's time it was put to the test eh? :) If it's good enough for street traders then it's good enough for us!

I'll report back in due course. Don't hold your breath though. This will take a long time I'm sure!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Rob P wrote:
mancityfan wrote:
It has been established in a number of cases before the courts that a Council may not derive a profit or surplus from such licensing activity.

Can anyone tell me if any of these cases specifically related to taxi licences please? If so, the case name would be greatly appreciated.

I am currently challenging my local authority over 'profiteering' from our fees.

Involve the District Auditor, he will know the law on licensing fees & covering costs only.

That's what we did in Brum many years ago & had a rebate into the licensing fund of £368K if my memory still serves me correctly.

I always thought it was £3.68 p

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Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:53 pm 
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Rob P wrote:
Thanks Brummie Cabbie and Captain Cab for your prompt replies.

Having done extensive research I haven't found such a case so I guess it's time it was put to the test eh? :) If it's good enough for street traders then it's good enough for us!

I'll report back in due course. Don't hold your breath though. This will take a long time I'm sure!


It wont get to court I assure you.

As Brummie suggests, a letter to the district auditor may suffice, research the fees in your surrounding local authorities, as the questions that man city fan has suggested.

If they are excessive, the auditor should help.

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:59 pm 
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The wording of lgmpa 1976,s 70(1)c clearly envisages the inclusion of the costs of enforcement,and subsequent legal proceedings, as being part of the costs relating to the vehicles themselves.This will cover enforcement of the provisions against both licensed vehicles and unlicensed vehicles.The costs of enforcement for hackney may be different from the enforcement costs in relation to private hire.It is less clear whether the costs of enforcement in relation to operators licences,can be included in the fee,as the wording appears to limit the use of that section to vehicles themselves.the overall effect of the provisions within the act,in respect of fees for licences would appear that,in relation to drivers,the costs of issue and admin can be recovered,in relation to vehicles the costs of inspection,ranks,control and supervision and the admin connected with it can be recovered.In order to be able to justify a fee under the act it will be necessary to be able to differentiate between the two provisions.This will mean that there must be at least two identifiable accounts relating to the fees levied under each section.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Rob P wrote:
Can anyone tell me if any of these cases specifically related to taxi licences please? If so, the case name would be greatly appreciated.

Don't think there are any cases relating to taxi licensing.

Rob P wrote:
I am currently challenging my local authority over 'profiteering' from our fees.

As has been mentioned go to the District Auditor, but first get loads of FoI requests in to get as much info as possible. :wink:

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IDFIMH


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:12 pm 
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http://modgov.sefton.gov.uk/moderngov/i ... 5306&Ver=4

look at item 5.

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Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:22 pm 
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mancityfan wrote:
The wording of lgmpa 1976,s 70(1)c clearly envisages the inclusion of the costs of enforcement,and subsequent legal proceedings, as being part of the costs relating to the vehicles themselves.This will cover enforcement of the provisions against both licensed vehicles and unlicensed vehicles.The costs of enforcement for hackney may be different from the enforcement costs in relation to private hire.It is less clear whether the costs of enforcement in relation to operators licences,can be included in the fee,as the wording appears to limit the use of that section to vehicles themselves.the overall effect of the provisions within the act,in respect of fees for licences would appear that,in relation to drivers,the costs of issue and admin can be recovered,in relation to vehicles the costs of inspection,ranks,control and supervision and the admin connected with it can be recovered.In order to be able to justify a fee under the act it will be necessary to be able to differentiate between the two provisions.This will mean that there must be at least two identifiable accounts relating to the fees levied under each section.


Thank you Mr Button :lol:

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:24 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Rob P wrote:
Thanks Brummie Cabbie and Captain Cab for your prompt replies.

Having done extensive research I haven't found such a case so I guess it's time it was put to the test eh? :) If it's good enough for street traders then it's good enough for us!

I'll report back in due course. Don't hold your breath though. This will take a long time I'm sure!


It wont get to court I assure you.

As Brummie suggests, a letter to the district auditor may suffice, research the fees in your surrounding local authorities, as the questions that man city fan has suggested.

If they are excessive, the auditor should help.

CC

I don't agree with that, because one authorities licensing cost will not necessarily have any bearing on a neighbouring authorities licensing costs.

For example, LA One may have a 'Can't be a*sed' enforcement officer & have a fleet of 5,000 hire vehicles, whereas LA Two might have 500 hire vehicles & a highly pro-active enforcement regime.

Also, I would strongly suggest that the first thing you should do is ask your licensing department for the name of the person in the LA's fnance department that deals with the licensing finance, phone him/her to confirm that he/she is the correct person & then write to them under the FoI Act asking for the lat six years accounts for the HC & PH Licensing Department.

From this information, which the LA are legally obliged to furnish you with, you should be able to verify whether there has been any profits that have not been retained by the Licensing Department.

The Licensing Department may make profits, (it is difficult / impossible in reality to set fees & budgets to break even every year). BUT any such profits MUST be retained in the licensing funds, MUST NOT be transferred to the council's general funds & licensing fee MUST be adjusted in future years accordingly, whether that be a decrease, if a profit was made in the previous year, or an increase if there was a shortfall.

Get the licensing departments accounts first & take it from there.

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:28 pm 
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I never expected you to agree, but then, it is written, in caselaw other than the King case. :shock:

CC

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