Taxi Driver Online

Obviously a fine line between keeping warm and excessive idling, but this reads like the wardens totally unaware of any defence at all. (The 'fine' line pun wasn't deliberate )


Brighton and Hove taxi drivers fined for keeping engines running

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-67923067

Taxi drivers in Brighton and Hove say they are being fined for keeping their engines running in order to keep warm while at taxi ranks.

Motorists in the city can now be issued with fines of up to £40 if they leave their vehicles running when parked.

The city council said it would not be issuing fines to taxi drivers keeping warm while at taxi ranks.

Brighton & Hove Cab Trade Association said wardens seemed to be unaware of these exceptions.

Andrew Peters, chair of the association, said: "I had a phone call from a driver who said he was on a rank in East Street at 06:30 and he was issued with a penalty notice for running his engine while trying to keep warm."

He told BBC Radio Sussex: "I had a driver who told me that he had a conversation with one of the wardens, and he had no idea [about the exceptions]."

He said some drivers may start to boycott taxi ranks in the city.

"The council is going to have to have common sense."

Tim Rowkins, Labour chairman of the city council's environmental committee, said: "We take a common sense approach to enforcement so there are exemptions including those which take into consideration severe weather and the health and safety of the driver or passengers."

He added: "However, taxi drivers seen idling their engines whilst stationary at a taxi rank with their windows open or vacant from their vehicle would be expected to comply with the instruction to turn off their engine, since the defence of keeping warm would not apply."

we used to get cars sat on the rank keeping their engines running in summertime to keep aircon cool.

But despite the fact we also have rule stating engines to be switched off drivers were not allowed to complain about fellow drivers only the general public can complain.

Here we have a Green council finding pumping out polution acceptable on the grounds of staying warm but in my experience as a general rule most drivers don't sit in their cars at ranks they socialise

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lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

What a kerfuffle!

Last week we had the Chair of the Environmental Committee telling the local BBC that the new rules wouldn't apply to cab drivers sitting on the ranks, especially if it was cold.

This was confirmed in the BBC interview with Mr Peters today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mic0kV1gzeU

To the shock of no one the enforcement team (not licensing enforcement) were out and about ignoring what the councillor said. The civil servant in charge basically said the councillor is an idiot who doesn't know what he is on about.

The legislation covers all vehicles on public roads including buses, taxis, and private cars. No exemption to taxi’s were given and Cllr Rowkins has made a mistake with his statement.
Max Smith the Environmental Enforcement Operations Manager at City Clean

If anyone is looking for old Max he was last seen heading towards the local job centre.

Following Max Smith's advice, councillors have decided to ignore it again and have once again confirmed that drivers sitting on taxi ranks are indeed exempt from enforcement.

“We take a common-sense approach to enforcement so there are exemptions including those which take into consideration severe weather and the health and safety of the driver or passengers.

“For example, enforcement would not apply to drivers who need their engines on to clear their windscreen, or to taxi drivers who are stationary at a taxi rank with their engines running in particularly cold weather and have no other means to keep warm.
B&H Council statement

If this was a football match the result would be Councillors (aka the dog) 1 - Civil Servants (aka the tail) 0.

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IDFIMH

The bit that has miffed me off the most, and several of my colleagues, is that the enforcement team concentrated on cabs, on ranks, because they were easy pickings.

Is it really such a heinous thing for working taxi drivers to want to remain warm whilst they are waiting for work?

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IDFIMH

https://www.lightinthebox.com/p/car-hea ... fafbf7d6ee

For £13.00 you can get a 12v heater for the car so you don't have to run the engine.

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Grandad,

how many of those drivers are capable of doing the maths and working out if that's worth while ?

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lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

Latest information from B&H civil servants.

Engine idling enforcement – information for taxi drivers
January 2024

We’re asking drivers to switch off their engines when parked to help improve air quality. It will benefit everyone using the roads and will also help drivers to save on fuel costs.

To complement this, City Environment, South Downs & The Sea Committee in June 2023 agreed to introduce enforcement measures for drivers who don’t switch off their engines while parked. The enforcement measures came into effect from 2 January 2024.

If a driver is witnessed idling, they may be liable for a £40 Fixed Penalty Notice, reduced to £20 if paid within 10 days.
The enforcement covers all vehicles on public roads including buses, taxis, and private cars. This could be in a parking bay, taxi rank and other parts of the road, but doesn’t apply to sitting in traffic.

In all cases, drivers will be approached and asked to turn their engines off before a fine is issued.

We are taking a common-sense approach to enforcement so there are exemptions including those which take into consideration severe weather and the health and safety of the driver or passengers.

For example, enforcement would not apply to drivers who need their engines on to clear their windscreen, or to taxi drivers who are stationary at a taxi rank with their engines running when temperatures are below zero degrees and have no other means to keep warm. Similarly, enforcement would not apply in extremely high temperatures when drivers need to keep the air conditioning on and have no other means to keep cool.

However, taxi drivers seen idling their engines whilst stationary at a taxi rank with their windows open or vacant from their vehicle would be expected to comply with the instruction to turn off their engine. Failing to do so may result in a Fixed Penalty Notice due to being contrary to section 42 of the Road Traffic Act.

Other ways to keep your vehicle warm without having to have the engine running while stationary at a rank are:

• Having your heating on whilst travelling to and from the rank to keep the inside of your vehicle at suitable temperature.
• Keeping all windows and doors closed.
• Considering purchasing a portable 12v plug in heater that can be used without the need of your engine running.

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IDFIMH

And they get paid how much for that?

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IDFIMH

Well there's the first piece of nonsense - 0.0C and you can't run your engine at all, -0.5C and you can run your engine, presumably without limit. (My car's exterior's thermometer displays 0.5C increments, in case anyone's wondering.)

I mean, imagine if you took such a crude approach to heating your house? And, with such a cliff-edge approach to the rules, who decides when and where it's below zero, and how is it measured?



Waited more than two hours for a run lots of times over the last few weeks at night in town, never mind out at the station, where a couple of hours for a run is almost the norm

And it's obviously been quite chilly, so I have lots of experience with trying to keep warm etc. And sometimes the windows can get quite steamed up, and you need to run the engine to clear them. And, surprise, surprise, opening the window a smidgen can help with keeping the windows clear. But which obviously doesn't help with regard to keeping the car warm, but them's the facts. For me, it's all about using judgement to keep warm, and keep the windows clear while not running the engine excessively. I mean, it's not as if I want to waste fuel or cause possible DPF problems with idling, or whatever.


A few weeks ago the car was so frozen up when I was starting my shift I had to drive the car into town, went shopping (by which time the car is usually thawed out) and it was almost two hours of sitting and driving around before all the doors would open

If only I'd taken advice from B&H officials and put the heating on when I left the house. Something I've never thought of before


Quite apart from keeping warm in winter and keeping cool in summer, one reason (here at least) that's a good reason to run the engine occasionally is the possibility of a flat battery.

Lost count of the number of flat batteries I've seen on the ranks over the years. Just as we were going into lockdown I'm sure two cars in front of me went flat at the station while we were waiting. That was the day I set my new record out there - six or seven hours I think it was (Of course, after a day or two of that the vast majority of us decided not to bother.)

But to that extent the use of a 12V plug-in heater for the car rings alarm bells, for obvious reasons. And I'd guess they're quite significant in terms of draw.

Of course, they could help with careful use. But the basic conundrum is that if you're doing a reasonable amount of running around then that keeps the car warm, and the battery charged. It's only when you're doing nothing that you have to worry about keeping warm, and flat batteries etc. At which point the practicality of using a plug-in heater needs a bit of thought

And on what basis is 0.0C deemed ok? Are those civil servants medically trained? Why not -5C or 5C?

I think the minimum temperature should be equal to what those civil servants deem acceptable in their offices.

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IDFIMH

So B&H officials can go days or even weeks in the winter without using the heating in their cars? I mean, most of the time it isn't below 0C

Or if they were stuck in a snow drift and the temperature outside was 0C, then they wouldn't heat the car at all? Until hypothermia started to set in, presumably

They say they're taking a 'common sense' approach, yet don't seem to have the slightest clue about temperatures and heating practicalities etc.

I mean, at times when I've had to unfreeze the car to get in (with a bucket of cold water), it's been maybe 1 or 2C air temperature. Yet according to B&H Council's 'common sense' approach the car wouldn't require heating

I wonder if the people who get a flat battery without the engine running also go out every few minutes when they are at home and not working to run the engine to stop the battery getting flat.
If their battery goes flat just by having the engine off for a few hours would suggest to me that they need a new battery.

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Grandad,

I would certainly agree that those ending up with a flat battery on the ranks are unikely to have one that's in tip top condition, but apart from that...

I mean, for a start, who replaces a battery until there's evidence it has deteriorated significantly? Not many, I'd guess, and certainly not me. Not that I wouldn't replace it if I was having starting problems, or whatever, but I've run with batteries that I know aren't in optimal condition, and act accordingly, but sometimes make mistakes and have been caught out

Which is probably what's going on with these guys on the ranks - they've been on the rank a few hours, not going anywhere, maybe just starting the engine a couple of times for a very short period to move up the rank. Meanwhile, they've maybe got gadgets running from a 12V adapter, they've put the ignition on to put the window down to talk to someone/get some air in the car, or whatever, they forget to switch off the ignition, blah, blah...

One driver I knew would often have his ignition on and heater fan blowing to clear the screen of condensation in the rain, and would use the wipers to clear the screen at the same time. Not something I'd do myself other than for a very short period, and he was never caught out, but if his battery wasn't good and he did it a bit too often, then...

But (Grandad) you can't really compare sitting on the rank - even without much in the way of power hungry stuff in use - with a car sitting locked up? I mean, weren't you the one further up the thread suggesting the use of a 12V heater in the car?

A locked up car's draw is probably less than 1W, while the heater you linked to is 150W alone

Thus the heater alone is the same as maybe 30 sidelight bulbs, never mind any other stuff that might draw current in a car on the rank, such as heater fans, ignition being on, windows etc. And that's just the very hungry stuff - interior lights, the rooflight and also the meter can all add up over several hours.

Here's another reason a car locked up is maybe not comparable to one on the rank. Maybe twenty years ago, I knew my battery wasn't good, but was short of cash and just tried not to run it down. But never had a problem starting it from cold.

But a couple of times I caught myself out on the rank, and the car wouldn't start. But a few times I got round that by simply switching everything in the car off (stereo, meter, rooflight, interior lights, or whatever), and after maybe twenty minutes that would somehow replenish the battery enough to start the car

Not sure precisely what that was all about, but even switching off a few 5W bulbs, the meter and stereo seemed to allow the battery to somehow recover enough to start the car

But even ignoring that, I don't think comparing a car locked-up for several hours with one on the rank is really comparing like with like, particularly for a driver who maybe uses lots of gadgets while in the car and is maybe a bit careless.

(B&H are right insofar as there's a CGAF element of drivers (particularly part-time types who don't own the car, say), who will idle excessively. By the same token, the CGAF element are maybe also the type who will leave the ignition on too long, and/or run lots of gadgets etc, and any possible issues with the car and its battery are just ignored and left to another driver.)

Apart from that, I don't have any particular view on the subject

(Was going to maybe look at the thing historically, and that maybe more modern batteries are better than 20 years ago. I've got a big capacity stop-start AGM battery, so charging a phone or whatever isn't maybe the same problem it might have been twenty years ago. By the same token, my VWs' 12V sockets wouldn't work without the ignition on, which years ago I regarded as a real pain, because obviously having the ignition on was increasing the draw on the car battery while stationary.

But it's not a thing I've thought about for years, because batteries on phones etc are a lot better these days, so can't really recall the last time I used my 12V sockets for anything, assuming I've got my phones charged up before I go out. And now got a 1,500A Noco jump starter, which I've used occasionally to charge my phones or card reader (and customers'). It supposedly also jump starts diesel engines up to 4.5 litres and petrol engines up to 7.0 litres, but I've never used it in anger yet, so don't know if it will work

But if anyone with a 1970s Jensen Interceptor needs a jump start, my Noco Boost would manage the 6.3 litre engine, but not the 7.2 litre one. In theory, at least )

Well at least Mr Peters seems to echo what I was saying about battery drain etc.

And the nonsense of the cliff edge 0C rule.

I mean, if you're on the road and doing regular jobs with brief stops, then it could be -5C outside and you don't really have to idle to keep warm between jobs.

But it could be 5C, and if you come out in a cold car and it's a couple of hours until you get your first job...

Especially with my Raynaud's/circulation problems. I mean, even when it was 30C the summer before last I slept with a 15 tog duvet all summer, and rarely felt too warm

Which is great in the summer, because I rarely feel uncomfortably hot like I did 30 years ago, say. But in the winter...


Taxi drivers told to buy plug-in heaters to keep warm

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/202 ... keep-warm/

Taxi drivers are being told to keep plug-in heaters in their cars to keep them warm in wintery weather to dodge a crackdown on idling engines.

Council officers told cabbies last week they would be fined if caught with their engines running if the temperature was zero degrees or higher.

Earlier this month, at least one taxi driver, George Ayad, was told he would be fined after an environmental enforcement officer spotted him with the engine on while at the East Street taxi rank, even though it was snowing.

And just ahead of last week’s meeting of the Brighton and Hove Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Consultation Forum last Thursday, drivers were told to keep doors and windows closed and buy heaters to keep warm.

Andrew Peters, of the Brighton and Hove Cab Trade Association, said: “We have now been sent advice which defines when us minions can keep the engine running and some advice at the end to all go out and buy plug in heaters. You couldnt make it up!

“I laboured the point at the meeting last week about not being able to have the engines running for heat unless it was below zero.

“It was apparent straight away that not all at the head table were aware of this.

“Additionally I pointed out that to have a 12v internal heater running on the aux would mean for some cars having to have the ignition on first click which would run the battery down.

“We also have on board board equipment such as CCTV, meters and taxi roof signs all drawing power.

“I have asked for a rewrite excluding where it stated zero degree and to be sent out to the trade.”

“The advice also suggests having heating on while travelling to and from the rank and keeping windows and doors closed.”

Brighton and Hove City Council introduced the on the spot fines for idling engines this month. Within days, drivers were being asked to switch off their engines by the council’s environment enforcement officers despite sub-zero temperatures.

George Ayad, who was told he would be getting a fine in the post, said he had heard Councillor Tim Rowkins on BBC Sussex saying tickets wouldn’t be issued to taxi drivers trying to keep warm – although he did say this applied to “sub-zero temperatures”

George said: “Suddenly on Sunday an enforcement officer came to me and he asked me if I could turn the engine off.

“I said no, because it’s too cold. It was about six in the morning and it was snowing. He said you have got to turn it off or I’ll give you a ticket.”

George refused to give his name and address, but the enforcement officer took his plate number and said he would track him down using that and to expect a ticket.

George says the officer even double checked the rules with his boss, but insisted the ticket would stand. He had been inside his cab, with the windows closed to keep out the cold.

He added: “On Friday night at 2.30am all the enforcement officers are around the West Street taxi rank. They have been going around and asking all the drivers to turn their engines off.

“We do minimum 10 hour shifts. Sometimes we can wait for one and a half hours for a job.

“Some drivers have problems with their joints. We have to keep ourselves warm.

“It looks like they are targeting the taxi drivers. We never see them anywhere except the taxi ranks.”

A council spokesman said: “We take a common sense approach to enforcement so there are exemptions, including those which take into consideration severe weather and the health and safety of the driver or passengers.

“However, taxi drivers seen idling their engines whilst stationary at a taxi rank with their windows open or vacant from their vehicle would be expected to comply with the instruction to turn off their engine, since the defence of keeping warm would not apply.”

The rules say: “Authorised Environmental Enforcement Officers will apply discretion before issuing a fixed penalty notice for example when a driver is clearing ice or snow from the car and the engine is idling.”

The fine for idling is £20, or £40 if not paid within 10 days.

I have just bought one on Amazon for just under £112.00, I haven't had a chance to try it yet because the weather has picked up. I bought it mainly to help with de-icing on cold mornings. I will let you know if it is any good when we next get a frost.

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Grandad,