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Taxi Rank in Docks
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Author:  Sotontaxi [ Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Taxi Rank in Docks
We have to purchase a docks permit to be able to work in Southampton Docks and service the cruise passengers.
There are 5 ranks where we are allowed to ply for hire.
At our last meeting with Licensing,they told us that in order to speed up disembarkation they were considering issuing permits to neighbouring Hackney's.They said they could do this as the docks has special byelaws and that the ranks were on private land.
Does anyone know if they can actually do this?
Author:  Sussex [ Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Quote:
Does anyone know if they can actually do this?

Clearly it's private land, so it's not as straightforward as if it was on the street. There is loads of case law on this issue, and the actual practicalities of using non-local hackneys make it not an easy option for venues trying to be clever.

Hackneys working outside of their area can only take work if they are booked, so they might not be deemed unlawfully plying for hire, but they would, IMO, be deemed unlawfully picking up without a booking. Those bookings don't necessarily have to meet the legal PH booking requirements, but the jobs need to be booked in advance.

I also very much doubt their local council will appreciate their hackneys working elsewhere, and many councils now have a 'you must work predominately within your local area' rule.

I wonder if the docks people are trying it on, as if they wanted rid of local hackneys they could use local PH. I'm quite sure one of the local firms would supply a little booking office to be manned as and when.
Author:  Sussex [ Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Quote:
they told us that in order to speed up disembarkation

Now you would know better than me, but whenever I drop at the docks there are plenty of local cabs waiting.

Is there an issue?
Author:  StuartW [ Sat Mar 15, 2025 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Sussex, I'd guess that in terms of the demand studies etc, it's very 'peaked' at the docks there - thus there will be huge spikes in demand when ships embark, and thus a shortage of cabs, but in the grand scheme of things there's probably a surplus most of the time.

It's probably a bit like that at our wee station, where there's almost always surplus cars, but because there are relatively few trains, occasionally there are quite a few people waiting, and I'd guess many of them will think it's like that much of the time, while 99%+ of the time it's like a morgue :roll:

On a longer timeframe, our demand in St Andrews is very peaked when the Open Golf is here, but that's just a few days every five years or so, but to that extent there's a definite demand spike.

But that's why last time round and at a subsequent golf event, the council allowed cars from other Fife zones to ply for hire in the town :roll:

So I'd guess that at the Southampton docks there are huge demand spikes when cruise ships come in, which I'd guess is what they're trying to deal with here. But the rest of the time...
Author:  Sotontaxi [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
The intention is to issue them Dock permits so that they can rank up with us.
We have over 200 cars that have the permits and when it's busy we can be stuck in traffic for over 20 minutes just to get into the docks.
Infrastructure is horrendous and they feel by issuing more permits this would solve the problem.
Author:  StuartW [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Sussex, if the cars are deemed not plying for hire, then not sure if out-of-area HCs actually need to be pre-booked.

Or at least that's my only experience of that kind of thing - only went once myself, and only did a couple of runs, but Fife HCs used to go to T in the Park when it was in the Perth & Kinross Council area.

So once they were in the private land area - to which only ticketholders could gain access, and not the general public, obviously - then it was just like the normal in-area rank scenario. So the HCs would form a queue, the punters would roll up, and off they went :-o

Of course, that's not to say it was fully legal, particularly if someone had challenged it, and there may be some quirk in Scotland that would make it different to what should happen down south. But it went on for years at T in the Park, and the respective councils knew what was going on :?
Author:  edders23 [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Never had a problem when I've done cruises from Southampton but if it's an issue why out of town Hackneys ? why not as it's private land do a deal with a local PH operator for a pop up office next to the terminals and use local PH cars with presumably some knowledge or even set up a shuttle bus service to and from the railway station as in my experience (myself included) a lot of the disembarking passengers are heading there.
Author:  Sotontaxi [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
The docks is a unique place of work.
Sometimes we are waiting for 2 hours before our first job.
Most of the time there will be a queue of people plus a queue of taxis waiting.
The marshals will only load 3 cars at a time. The main issue is the amount of traffic that comes into the docks.
They use a valet parking system for passengers that creates a backlog of traffic.
There are people waiting up to an hour to pick their passengers up,taking up spaces.
We have suggested that they use ANPR camera's like they do at airports.
PH companies have tried to get in before,they would have to have their entire fleet waiting on standby.
This would neglect their regular customers ,if they were to increase their fleet they wouldn't be able to offer enough jobs when the ships weren't there.
Cruise ships disembarkation is on average 3 to 4 pick ups in a 4 hour window.
Most of the fares are between £6 and £10 depending on which terminal.
Just need some clarity if what Licensing are suggesting is legal.
One thing I forgot to mention is that they look after the neighbouring Taxis as well as ours.
Author:  Sussex [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
I think you need to remind the docks and the council that bylaws do not trump statute laws.

What I can gather from your answer is that most of the rank jobs go to the station which isn’t a million miles away, so I’m not sure there will be a queue a mile long of non local taxis buying permits.

I would imagine that any non local wanting to work the docks would do it via Uber as a PH.

I think the docks people are trying it on. If they are really concerned about supply then why not allow all local hackneys to ply at the docks, not just those buying permits.
Author:  Sussex [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Forgot to add that this judgement, which is quite detailed, might aid your situation.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15053

Stockton v Fidler
Author:  StuartW [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
This is from 2017 :-o


Southampton taxi drivers' anger over ABP's plan to hike the cost of dockside parking permits

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/149971 ... g-permits/

TAXI drivers have reacted angrily to plans to raise the cost of a permit for “ranking up” in Southampton Docks by more than 500 per cent.

Dock owners ABP, in consultation with Southampton City Council, proposed increasing the permit from £68 to £370.

The permit allows Hackney Cabs to wait for passengers coming off the cruise ships.

In recent years ABP has employed ranks marshals who have told cabbies where to wait and helped passengers find taxis.

Each time a taxi picked up a passenger from the terminals the driver paid the marshal £1 - which was added to the fare.

The marshals were introduced at the request of the cruise companies after trouble with some taxi drivers refusing to accept short journeys, preferring to hold out for lucrative long journeys.

Both sides agree the £1 system is unsatisfactory - the drivers do not receive a receipt or token to say they have paid the fee and then have to explain why they are charging £1 extra.

ABP proposes to scrap the scheme when the new permit comes into force.

However angry drivers say that at least the £1 charge can be passed onto the customer unlike the extra £302 they are paying for a permit.

Driver, Perry McMillan claimed it was a money-making scheme for ABP who already “made a mint” out of the cruise ships.

He said Unite was now in talks with ABP.

In the letter sent out by licensing manager Phil Bates the following breakdown is give for the how the proposed permit price was reached: SCC costs £45.34 ABP costs £262.99 Sub total £308.33 VAT (20 per cent) £61.67 Total £370 Clive Johnson of the Southampton Trade Association (STA) which represents drivers said the increase in permit cost was unacceptable.

“A lot of drivers are saying they will not renew their permits at that price,” he said.

An ABP spokesman said: “We are exploring options with the council to devise an improved scheme that reduces the cost for drivers while delivering an enhanced service for our cruise customers.

A council statement said: “This is only a proposal at present and no decision has yet been taken.”
Author:  StuartW [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
So looking at the council's website, Mr SotonTaxi, I'd guess the proposed permit hike in 2017 didn't go ahead?

According to the application form on the council's website, the current fee is £144 (£120 plus VAT).

But it looks slightly odd for this kind of thing, maybe - the council seems to administer the permits on behalf of ABP, whereas I don't think councils normally get involved with administering permits at airports and rail stations etc, or in other private land scenarios?

Link to the form on the council's website here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... mISpbMc3EJ
Author:  StuartW [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Was going to ask who was pushing for the out-of-area HCs, exactly, but it looks like both SCC and ABP are quite involved with the whole thing.

And at a rough guess I'd say the reason they don't have PH involved is that because it's all very messy as it is, and PH couldn't service it themselves, for the reasons outlined by Mr SotonTaxi. So they don't want a mixed HC/PH scenario, because it would be more difficult to keep tabs on the whole thing.

Keeping it HC-only means better control over tariffs and conduct, etc.

But quite apart from the plying for hire angle, how precisely would they deal with the tariffs if they let out-of-area HCs in? :-o

Can't really see any way in which the tariff thing would work - they'd either end up with different cars charging different tariffs, or the out-of-area cars wouldn't be using meters, so it would all end up very messy in terms of tariffs, and wasn't that the kind of thing the whole permit scheme was designed to avoid in the first place?

And, of course, the out-of-area HCs couldn't use a meter with the SCC tariffs, because then it wouldn't be a licensed HC in terms of its own licensing area.

And I assume there's a limit on HC numbers in Soton, Mr SotonTaxi?
Author:  edders23 [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Quote:
There are people waiting up to an hour to pick their passengers up,taking up spaces.


it once took me 3 hours till my passengers finally emerged ! So quite a bit to pay for the parking :sad:
Author:  Sussex [ Sun Mar 16, 2025 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taxi Rank in Docks
Whilst it will make sense for Mr Sotontaxi to read the Stockton - v - Fidler judgement via the link in a previous post, a very brief summary can be found here.

https://www.innertemplelibrary.com/2010 ... wlr-daily/

“The definition of ‘private hire vehicle’ in s 80(1) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, with its express exclusion of hackney carriages, had to be read into the references to ‘private hire vehicle’ in sections 46(1)(d)(e); and the words ‘hackney carriage’, where they appeared in s 80(1), were not confined to a vehicle licensed as a hackney carriage by the local authority which was seeking to enforce within its own area the provisions of the 1976 Act, but extended to any vehicle licensed as a hackney carriage wherever so licensed. However. it was an offence under s 45 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 for a hackney carriage licensed in one area to stand or ply for hire in another area where no licence had been granted to either the driver or the vehicle by the licensing authority for that area.”

This link gives a slightly better summary.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5 ... 7f57eaa76e
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