Taxi Driver Online

Ever since I first saw these Extra Charges on a Table of Fares some months ago, I have always had a little smile when I have though about them.

The detail is fantastic.

Have a look at these;


Extra Charges

For every additional passenger after the first (for the purposes of
fares only children under 3yrs of age to be disregarded: 2 children
between 3yrs and 14yrs of age to be counted as one) ............................ £0.30

Hand luggage (three carrier bags to be counted as one) ......................... £0.20

For every hold-all, small suitcase or back pack ......................................... £0.20

For every large suitcase, pram and pushchair .......................................... £0.30

For every bicycle ....................................................................................... £1.50

For every fold up bicycle ........................................................................... £1.00

Animals carried at the driver’s discretion;

Caged animals ......................................................................................... £0.50

Un-caged animals (depending on the size) ...................................... £1.00 to £1.50


For other items of bulk or weight not covered by the above;
By negotiation with the driver

Fouling Charge ....................................................................................... £75.00

DISABELD PERSONS, ASISSTANCE DOGS, WHEELCHAIRS AND ANY OTHER AID FOR THE DISABLED SHALL BE CARRIED FREE OF CHARGE.

Who determines what size a suitcase has to be before it is classified as large, or the size of an uncaged animal?

And I'll hazard a guess that there are some very big infants all under the age of three!

Do carrier bags tucked inside other carrier bags count as one or two?

Its just a recipe for passenger confrontation.

View the full Table of Fares, on PDF page 89, on this link;

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/committee/200 ... 1112_4.pdf

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

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The more extras you charge the more chances of having a ruck.

There is nothing more likely to get you grief from punters than keeping on banging the extras button.

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IDFIMH

Agreed!!!

That's why Brum now only has three Extra Charges

Extra passengers
Luggage outside the passenger compartmant
New Street Station

And as they are all 20p, its one push on the extras button per 20p.

Bristol's are in odd & even 10 pence units, so their's must be 10p a push.

Can you imagine a small dog, a large dog, a budgie in a cage, 4 passengers, 17 carrier bags, a hold-all, 2 small suitcase & 1 large one & then a pushchair on top.

How much would that lot cost on the extras button?

No doubt some bright spark will tell us on her soon.

I hope he/she gets their arithmetic right.

You'd wear your thumb out pushing all that lot on to the meter?

Do you know whether Bristol cabbies suffer from arthritic thumbs?

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Brummie Cabbie.

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Well found Mr Brummie, and I agree with what you say - does anyone know of any similar or more complex cards?

Can't say I even know how to use the extras button on my meter.

Our only extra which could conceviably go on the meter these days is "Excess luggage", ie: 'Excess or abnormal luggage - maximum charge £2.00'

Vague or what? I suppose it could maybe be justified occassionally, but I think there's often something about racking up charges on the extras button which annoys people, and it's much easier just to activate the meter and let it do the work.

The only other extra on our tariff car is toll bridge charges, but the tolls have gone now, and even prior to that most fares over the bridges were negotiated and if you got one on the meter it's more than enough to justify without adding anything to the meter, although I've no doubt some drivers added it.

Another point about these vague extras is that they're just a charter for cheating drivers IMO.

mmmm, what about "the clock" though, which will rack up charges at red lights, road works, traffic jams, etc... and gets switched on as you pull up to collect passengers, well, if they wanna mess about, why not!

London used to have a similar, but not as complex extra's system.

It all went about 6 years ago, we we're compensated with a much higher evening and night rate. I don't mourn it's loss, people always thought you were having them over when you pressed the extra's button, and then you had to run them through why you were charging the extra amount, all too much like hard work.

There is still a £4 charge made on certain days over the christmas period.

Radio taxi still charge a £2 booking fee, and last time I looked, you could charge £2 from the airport to compensate for the feeder park entry fee.

Isn't that illegal? I thought that the meter should be switched on when the journey begins, ie when the passengers are on board and the wheels start turning.

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Grandad,

so how much waiting time do you give the "hang on, we arent ready yet" brigade?

or

"just gotta pop in the bank"

"my mates in the [edited by admin], he wont be HIC long"

or was i the only 1 to have run into these types?.....

"STOP, nip back, ive forgot the passports"

"wheres the baby?"

"hold on drive........(turns to missus) .....look b***h, f**k off and live with yr mother, ........scream......ok drive sorry bout that"

You must be joking grandad!!

The meter goes on at the time & place of pickup. If the passenger is faffing about then why should you have to 'pay' for that.

If you had it your way & were kept waiting for 5 minutes on every job in a day & did not put your meter on until the passengers got into the cab & you did 10 jobs that day, you would have lost 50 minutes out of your working day.

That would probably mean that you could have done another job that day, if all those 10 passengers had not kept you waiting for 5 minutes each time you went to pick up a job.

No. Meter goes on at time & place of pick-up.

Admittedly some councils have strange ways of trying to dictate to HC drivers, but if it not in the bye-laws, (& the DfT lawyers have to pass all bye-laws before they are adopted by a council) then you do what the Table of Fares says; 'The taximeter works on time or distance'.

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Brummie Cabbie.

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Oh I totally see your point but if you check your conditions of license I think you will find out that the practice is illegal. The same as turning the meter on whilst loading a wheelchair is illegal.

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Grandad,

Interesting discussion. Anyone have any statute/case law? JD?

this must be a serious problem in inner london, where avg speeds are measured in yards per day not MPH

Well Mr Wannabeeahack, that’s just like a red rag to a bull. You have now started me on this one & its one of my favourite pet subjects, so sit well back, & I'll tell you how it is in the real world; that's Hackney by the way not PH.

If you hire a plumber or electrician to do work in your house, those 'tradesmen' charge by the hour; they charge their customers for the time it takes to do the job. And when they are taking instructions from the customer whilst on the job, or having a cup of tea that the nice customer might have provided, the plumber or electrician doesn’t knock that 5 or 10 minutes off the bill. And the customer is quite happy to pay the bill, when the work is completed.

I recently had a thermo-coupler/fail-safe device & an igniter changed in my boiler & I know that both part costs a total of just under £20.00. Price for the job £100 + VAT, but as I was paying cash I saved the VAT. He wasn’t at my house for more than 40 minutes, & that is only because he had a chat after he did the job, just to sweeten the blow. He lives about 10 minutes away, so let's say the job took him an hour including travel to & from his home. That is how much these 'tradesmen' charge for jobs because they have the trade recognised qualifications & only they can work on gas appliances or electrical installations; it’s the law. You can't even replace a switch or socket in your own house now; that's the law.

Now most HC drivers have qualifications too. They usually have to pass a knowledge test of one sort or another, be a 'fit & proper person', have regular CRB checks, be medically fit for the job, take passengers on a journey & at the same time have the experience not to prolong that journey (& the law say either by time or distance; work that one out), run a £30k+ HCV (plumbers/electricians van = £12k average), & have their fares controlled by an outside body, i.e. their LA, etc, etc. Do Hackney carriage drivers earn £100 per hour less the cost of their raw materials? I don't think so!!!! But cab drivers, being cab drivers, never stand up for themselves, when their so called earnings are questioned by the public, even though our rates are set by LAs. But that same public are only too willing to pay other 'tradesmen' their rates for the job; rates which those tradesmen set themselves.

Now to your point about the meter or 'clock' as you put it. Hackney Carriage drivers also get paid by time first & then by distance, but I know in many LAs the (Waiting Time) Time Charges as I like to call them are abysmally low.

When a passenger opens the door to my cab and puts a foot in, my meter goes on. I AM HIRED!! I am now working for that passenger & will take that passenger’s instructions and drive my expensive taxicab to wherever the passenger wishes to go. Now if on that journey there are traffic lights on red, heavy traffic, road work delays, etc, etc, then guess what? I AM STILL HIRED!! And I still want to be paid whilst in the temporary employ of my passenger, just like any other worker in the world. Delays during a hiring for whatever reason, are not the fault of the driver. Just because I am a cab driver, does not give any other person who wishes to use my services, the right not to pay me for my time when I am in their temporary employ, albeit held up by red lights or traffic. Why should I get the same fare for a 10 mile journey that takes me 20 minutes to complete & on another day or at another time of day takes me an hour and a half to do the same 10 mile journey? That's nonsense!!! I always say if a passenger’s journey in the rush hour comes to £x & they think it is too much, then they always have the option to travel at a time when traffic has died down & I will still be happy to take them. But if they insist on travelling at rush hour, then they must pay for the prevailing traffic conditions, because it is their choice to travel at that time & also my time has to be paid for!!!

Almost all taximeter throughout the world, work on time or distance, but never both at the same time. In a very few cases in some jurisdictions in the world they do work on time and distance, i.e. both at the same time always. When the meter is switched on it works on time until the taxi reaches what is known as the change-over speed, at which point the time charges stop & the distance charges take over. The time charges are, if you like, the cab driver’s minimum charge out rate, but once the change-over speed is reached the distance charges are greater than the time charges, so they ‘take over’ from the time charges. Generally speaking, the higher the change-over speed the better the fare structure & the more a cab driver can earn.

The change-over speed is a simple calculation; time charges per hour divided by charge per mile = change-over speed in miles per hour. If your distance charges are in kilometres, & you divide the time charges per hour by the charge per kilometre then the change-over speed is in kph. There are I suspect (PHTM no longer publish waiting time charges in their monthly taxi fares league tables) many areas in the country that put in for fare increases on mileage charges & ignore increases in time charges & then wonder why the fare increase has not had the desired effect. No cab driver can earn money in stationary traffic on mileage charges; it’s impossible. If you are a PH driver, (& I don’t know if you are), & only charge on mileage on a journey which includes horrendous traffic hold-ups, then all I can say is, ‘more fool you’.

When PHTM were still publishing time charges in their monthly taxi fare league tables , there were some absolutely astonishing time charges per hour throughout the country, both low & high. I have just gone back to their online newspaper archives & this is what some time charges were in January 2007, starting with the lowest, with the corresponding distance charges & the change-over speeds.

( Just in case you want to verify what I am about to write, the webpage link for PHTM January 2007 edition is; http://www.phtm.co.uk/media/1168012788.pdf For ease of reference, the numbers below on the left against each LA that I have quoted are the league position as displayed in PHTM’s January 2007 editon, for that LAs fares, should you use the link. ).

376 HARTLEPOOL

Days; £6.00 per hour, 60p per mile; Change-over speed = 10.00 mph
Nights; £9.00 per hour, £1.20 per mile; Change-over speed = 7.50 mph

375 EASINGTON

Days; £6.00 per hour, £1.00 per mile; Change-over speed = 6.00 mph
Nights; £6.00 per hour, £1.50 per mile; Change-over speed = 4.00 mph

317 DERWENTSIDE

Days; £6.00 per hour, £1.30 per mile; Change-over speed = 4.62 mph
Nights; £6.00 per hour, £1.40 per mile; Change-over speed = 4.29 mph

273 HYNDBURN

Days; £6.00 per hour, £1.30 per mile; Change-over speed = 4.62 mph
Nights; £6.00 per hour, £1.30 per mile; Change-over speed = 4.62 mph

247 KINGSTON UPON HULL

Days; £9.00 per hour, £1.20 per mile; Change-over speed = 7.50 mph
Nights; £9.00 per hour, £1.50 per mile; Change-over speed = 6.00 mph

19 BIRMINGHAM

Days; £12.00 per hour, £1.50 per mile; Change-over speed = 8.00 mph
Nights; £12.00 per hour, £1.50 per mile; Change-over speed = 8.00 mph

309 SOUTH SHROPSHIRE

Days; £24.00 per hour, £1.10 per mile; Change-over speed = 21.82 mph
Nights; £36.00 per hour, £1.65 per mile; Change-over speed = 21.82 mph

192 NORTH SHROPSHIRE

Days; £30.00 per hour, £1.50 per mile; Change-over speed = 20.00 mph
Nights; £45.00 per hour, £2.25 per mile; Change-over speed = 20.00 mph

The PHTM taxi fares league tables are sorted by fare at 2 miles on tariff one using distance charges only.

So what does it all mean. If you compare Easington’s night rate it shows the lowest change-over speed in the country on any tariff in January 2006. Their time charges on nights are £6.00 an hour which is their ‘minimum charge-out rate’. The change-over speed is 4.00 miles an hour & if a HC driver is crawling along (in traffic) at less than that speed, the maximum they can earn is £6.00 an hour. At 5 miles an hour (still in traffic) all they will earn is £7.50 per hour i.e. 5 miles travelled in an hour multiplied by the mileage rate of £1.50 per mile = £7.50.

Now let’s have a look at South Shropshire’s night rates, which in January 2007 had (& I believe still have) the highest change-over speed in the country at that time, which was 21.82 mph. They have a time charge of £36.00 an hour on nights, which is their ‘minimum charge-out rate’. So in their case they are on £36.00 an hour until such time as they reach 21.82 mph, after which they will be earning more than £36.00 per hour because the speed at which the taxi is now travelling dictates that. (Their mileage rate on nights is £1.65 & if you multiply the change-over speed of 21.82 mph by the rate per mile it equals £36.00; i.e. 1.65 x 21.82 = 36)) So when a driver in South Shropshire takes a fare on nights & the journey lasts 20 minutes, he is guaranteed earnings of at least £12 for that journey even if it only goes 1 mile in traffic & more if he travel at a speed greater than 21.82 mph on a longer journey. HC drivers in South Shropshire are being paid properly for the job they do!!!! And in North Shropshire for that matter!!!

Also note the time charges for North Shropshire; £30.00 on days & £45.00 on nights, both of which are greater than the current London rates that peak at just below £35.00 per hour on nights & I can’t remember the time charges on days. It is no coincidence that North & South Shropshire’s time charges are so high, resulting in the highest change-over speeds in the country. They must have the same person applying for tariff variations in both LAs, & what a good job he/she does, whoever he or she is!! And they are even synchronised on the day & night tariffs so that they have the same change-over speeds, so that the tariffs do not loose their integrity when changing from day rate to night rate. All too many tariffs around the country have a reasonable change-over speed on days, but when the night tariff is applied, for some reason the mileage rate goes up by say 50% on the day rate, but the waiting time stays the same. The result is a much lowered change-over speed on nights & the desired effect is not fully achieved.

The highest change-over speed that I have seen is for Paris taxis, & that’s not surprising considering their dreadful all day traffic jams. Their change over speed was 40 kph or 25 mph & that was at the time Goodbody Economic Consultants did the in depth taxi study report for the Republic of Ireland government, which eventually resulted in one taxi tariff for the whole of Ireland. (Probably the pre-cursor for what might eventually happen in the UK).

Lastly, let’s compare Birmingham’s day rate in January 2007 to South Shropshire’s rate at that time. Birmingham was on £12.00 per hour time charges, £1.50 per mile & had a change-over speed of 8.00 mph, whereas South Shropshire was on £24.00 per hour time charges, £1.10 per mile & had a change-over speed of 21.82 mph. Birmingham’s mileage rate was 36.3% higher than South Shropshire’s but because Birmingham’s time charges were 50% lower, guess which drivers would have earned more money job for job. It would NOT have been Birmingham’s drivers on a job for job basis.

In the above examples I have used North & South Shropshire because they illustrated my point of view perfectly to show how important time charges are in the modern traffic infested world that we now live in. Please don’t come back to me & say ‘Oh, but in North & South Shropshire they do this & that & the other’. It does not matter, those two LAs served my purpose & you could read any other two LA that might have served as illustrations.

IMO fare tariffs in most LAs do not pay enough attention to time charges & I’ll go as far as to say that in today’s ever increasing traffic, time charges are becoming or perhaps may have already become, more important than the mileage charge.

What good is it to a cab driver if the Table of Fares is set at £5.00 per mile, the time charges are £8.00 per hour & he is stuck in traffic for 30 minutes. It’s £8.00 an hour good; no good at all!!

It’s time the cab trade were paid a proper rate & putting the emphasis on distance charges whilst ignoring time charges is not the way forward. Times have changed; it was OK 20 -30 years ago when traffic was a fraction of what it is now.

So you see Mr Wannabeeahack I have very strong views on time charges & IMO that is how important time charges are for HC drivers to try to earn some sort of living. And yes the meter will go click, click, tick-tock, another 20p on the clock, because when a passenger hires a taxi THEY DON’T!!!

They hire a licensed Hackney Carriage driver, & that HC driver just happens to drive a licensed Hackney Carriage, because only licensed HC drivers can drive a licensed Hackney Carriage. We’re special in that way. The passenger can’t pay the Hackney Carriage, he has to pay the HC driver & his time is valuable, just like every other worker in the world. The idea that the taxi is stuck in traffic & not going anywhere is immaterial. The driver is still in the temporary employ of the passenger until discharged by the passenger, & the driver shall be paid for his time.

In the meantime the passenger can continue to sit on the seat, read a newspaper or a book, listen to the music that might be provided & be kept warm in the winter, whilst standing in traffic!!!!!!!

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

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did hit a nerve?

hey, im with you chap, your/my time is money, lets set the clock!

ive lost track how many hours in total ive sat outside pubs and nightclubs for tos....er, punters who BOOK a car (cab...sorry) then want to keep it there till sid has snogged sally (or phillip) one more time and "oh, the taxi can wait"

i wel lremember 1 saturday night with a rank heaving and two guys with young ladies (ahem) get in, i set off and i hear "oh, going the long way are we drive?"

"why are we turning round driver?"

SO YOU CAN TAKE A DRIVER GOING THE SHORT WAY MATE

The practice of ‘winding up the meter’ before picking up passengers or getting to the pick up point is obviously illegal.

Grandad; if you are a HC driver, don’t tell me you have Conditions of Licence for a HC Driver from your LA? If you have they are not worth the paper they are written on!!

Putting the meter on before loading a wheelchair passenger (and probably unloading a wheelchair passenger while leaving the meter on) was covered in a publication from The Disability Rights Commission about nine month ago.

It was in their publication entitled;

Avoiding Disability Discrimination in Transport
A Practical Guide for Taxi and Private Hire Services.

The web-link to the PDF version is;

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/Docu ... tehire.pdf

The relevant paragraphs that you refer to state;

10.1 Charging policies

A taxi or PHV/C operator should not charge a disabled person more than anyone else would be charged for the same journey. Neither should any conditions be imposed which would not be imposed on others, such as insisting that the disabled passenger pays in advance.

Regardless of whether a wheelchair user travels in the vehicle sitting in the wheelchair, or transfers to a seat and stows the wheelchair in the vehicle’s boot, there should be no charge for the carriage of the wheelchair.

No extra charge should be made for carrying an assistance dog.

It is common practice for taxi drivers to start the meter as soon as they arrive at the point of origin for a trip. Although this might apply to all journeys, and to both disabled and non-disabled passengers, such a practice disadvantages people who take longer to get into a vehicle and be safely secured. The disabled passenger should not be charged for this extra time; instead the meter should only be started when the journey commences. In practice, a taxi driver is rarely deployed for 100 per cent of the working day, so there should be no reason for charging a disabled passenger extra for taking longer to get into the vehicle. However this does not mean that a disabled person who asks the driver to wait while they attend to other matters should not be charged for waiting time in the same way as any other passenger.

Also in the document is the following;

8.2 Assisting passengers travelling in wheelchairs

It is most important that drivers do not allow wheelchair users to travel sideways in their wheelchair. Drivers must ensure that the wheelchair is restrained in the wheelchair space correctly and an occupant restraint is offered to the wheelchair user. In order to do this effectively they must receive training in the use of all relevant belts and other restraint and locking mechanisms.

Now! How many drivers carry wheelchair passengers sideway then?

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

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Disagree with other members' views;
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