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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Sussex said:

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Take this in a good way, but you need help.


Never a truer word has been said, the drugs are wearing off!!! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
The next step, presumably, is for any b*gger to turn up, no license or plate, and ply for hire.


What a good idea, seriously!

Isn't it about time that the 'trade' nationally highlighted these crazy LOs, unenforceable legislation, etc., & took time out on a Saturday night to converge on a situation like this, with national press reporters in attendance, to show how daft the law really is in this area?

Who's for plying for hire on private ground at Chichester on say Saturday, 4th October 2008.

If say a few thousand turn up from around the country with press in attendance, it should make headlines all around the country?

Some politicians might then take a little notice!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Fae Fife Said:

Quote:
But there's nothing in the legislation which says they can't go wherever they want, as long as they don't ply for hire in a public place.


I thought the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 Section 167(2) closed that loophole now, the old "define a road" chestnut was no longer applicable, as it sis a "public place", obviously opinion seems to think not.

B*gger.

Also:

Quote:
because the club is on private land its patrons don't count as the public.


Aliens? I did wonder what they were! :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie said:

Quote:
Who's for plying for hire on private ground at Chichester on say Saturday, 4th October 2008.


I am appalled at the suggestion.

Please do not go anywhere near Thursdays nightclub, located at Drayton House, Drayton Lane, Chichester, just off of the A259 south of Chichester.

Please avoid at all costs entereing PO20 6EW into your satnav.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:03 pm 
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whats the legal definition of "a public place" and what constitutes a "private place" then?

there must be a distinction and a legal definition somewhere

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:11 pm 
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wannabeeahack wrote:
whats the legal definition of "a public place" and what constitutes a "private place" then?

there must be a distinction and a legal definition somewhere


Try this one in the CJ&PO Act 1994, Section 167;

Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994

Section 167

Taxi touts
167
Touting for hire car services
(1) Subject to the following provisions, it is an offence, in a public place, to solicit persons to hire vehicles to carry them as passengers.
(2) Subsection (1) above does not imply that the soliciting must refer to any particular vehicle nor is the mere display of a sign on a vehicle that the vehicle is for hire soliciting within that subsection.
(3) No offence is committed under this section where soliciting persons to hire licensed taxis is permitted by a scheme under section 10 of the [1985 c. 67.] Transport Act 1985 (schemes for shared taxis) whether or not supplemented by provision made under section 13 of that Act (modifications of the taxi code).
(4) It is a defence for the accused to show that he was soliciting for passengers for public service vehicles on behalf of the holder of a PSV operator’s licence for those vehicles whose authority he had at the time of the alleged offence.
(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.
(6) In this section—
• “public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access (whether on payment or otherwise); and
• “public service vehicle” and “PSV operator’s licence” have the same meaning as in Part II of the [1981 c. 14.] Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.
(7) In section 24(2) of the [1984 c. 60.] Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (arrestable offences), after the paragraph (i) inserted by section 155 of this Act there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
“(j) an offence under section 167 of the [1994 c. 33.] Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (touting for hire car services).”.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Quote:
'Plying for Hire' means being on view and inviting the public to use the vehicle


1. i have no cloak of invisibilty..

2. signage supplied by my LA is an invitation to many "hey up, its a taxi"

how do you invite booking enquiries without inviting use of a vehicle?...

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:12 pm 
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Dear wannabeahack

Ask yourself the following:

1Do YOU park up in a way that could be interpreted as deliberately plying for hire and/or


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:25 pm 
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Sorry the last post want doolally!!

Dear wannabeahack

Ask yourself the following:

1 Do YOU park up in a way that could be interpreted as deliberately plying for hire?

2 Do YOU stop and take passengers when flagged in the street?

If the answers to both these questions is no, don't worry mate - no issue.


No rational person would have a problem with you taking phone work, especially as an owner/driver, and I would expect you to do this "on the hoof" so to speak - as I say no issue.

The legislation we have to operate under is archaic, often oxymoronic, and usually has not kept pace the way modern world works.

Advertise your company heavily, card people, paint your number on your vehicle - do whatever you need to promote your buisness, do things within the law, as it seems you are, then no objections from any Hack (who also have to act within the law).

The rules of the games are in place, but if some are playing cricket they should not complain about others are playing football.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:54 am 
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Doc G wrote:
Dear wannabeahack

Ask yourself the following:

1Do YOU park up in a way that could be interpreted as deliberately plying for hire and/or


just having signs is "inviting to use" surely to god?

hackneys = rank+flag downs

PH everything except

sounds good to me.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:55 am 
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Doc G wrote:

The rules of the games are in place, but if some are playing cricket they should not complain about others are playing football.



wear a box...

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Of all the things ive lost, i miss my mind the most


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm 
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wannabeeahack wrote:
whats the legal definition of "a public place" and what constitutes a "private place" then?

there must be a distinction and a legal definition somewhere


Perhaps the terminology I used earlier was a bit imprecise, at least in the context of the current discussion.

I think the plying for hire offence has to be committed in the street, which in effect means on or close to the public highway.

On the other hand, the touting offence is relevant in a public place, which has a different meaning. Thus it seems that while the nightclub is on private property, it's a 'public place', for the purposes of touting, but since the drivers are just passively sitting waiting for fares then there's no soliciting/touting going on, which the Doc seems to agree.

And because the club isn't close to the public highway then the cars can't be plying for hire in the street.

Thus perhaps the word public in 'public highway' is confusing the issue - the plying for hire offence is relevant if it's in the street, whereas the touting offence turns on the difference between a public or private place.

Thus while a railway station or airport could be on private property, it could be considered a public place for the purposes of touting, but because it's private property it could be considered off limits as far as plying for hire in the street is concerned.

Below are some extracts from the Eastbourne case, with some of the important passages in italics:

Quote:
… It is conceded that the respondents were not licensed as required by the [Town Police Clauses] 1847 Act. The issue is whether the respondents were ‘plying for hire in any street’ within the meaning of that expression in section 38 of the 1847 Act. The section provides that ‘every wheeled carriage…used in standing or plying for hire in any street…shall be deemed to be a hackney carriage within the meaning of this Act’. The west forecourt of Eastbourne railway station is shown on an agreed plan on which is marked the position of the taxi rank where the respondents were observed.

… Having referred to the authorities, the learned magistrate concluded that ‘the prosecution had not shown that the west forecourt at Eastbourne railway station is a ‘street’ for the purposes of this prosecution and therefore the application of no case to answer must succeed’. It is not disputed that the west forecourt is owned by Railtrack and is therefore private property.

Was the Court correct as a matter of law to hold…that the Prosecutor had not proved that the public had a right of access to the West Forecourt of Eastbourne Railway Station, and/or that the West Forecourt was not a ‘street’ within the meaning of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847?



The west forecourt of Eastbourne station, which is in fact a terminus, is adjacent to Terminus Road which no doubt takes its name from the railway premises … While on private land, the taxi rank is very close to the public highway. Indeed one end of the taxi rank is extremely close to, if not on, the boundary between the forecourt and the public highway. There is no barrier and nothing on the ground to signify the boundary between the private property and the public highway. The inference must in my judgment be drawn, on the facts of this case, that a substantial part of the demand for taxis positioned at the rank will come from pedestrians approaching from the public highway as distinct from the railway premises. Vehicles positioned on the rank will present an obvious attraction to people on the public highway.


The taxi rank is situated immediately adjacent to a public street in what is plainly a busy part of Eastbourne where many commercial premises are situated and pedestrian traffic will be high. A vehicle on the rank is plainly likely to attract custom from members of the public using the adjoining street in a busy part of the town. The respondents were plying for hire in a street within the meaning of section 38.


As a matter of language, I have no difficulty in construing the expression ‘plying for hire in any street’ as covering a situation in which the vehicle is in a prominent position just off the street and the public are in numbers on the street. The same point arose in the context of the Street Offences Act 1959 in Smith v Hughes [1960] 2 All ER 859 where this Court considered whether a prostitute who solicits men in a street from the balcony of a house or from behind closed or open ground floor or first floor windows of a house adjoining the street commits the offence of soliciting ‘in a street or public place’ contrary to section 1(1) of that Act. Lord Parker stated, at p 861B:

‘Observe that it does not say there specifically that the person who is doing the soliciting must be in the street. Equally it does not say that it is enough if the person who receives the solicitation or to whom it is addressed is in the street. For my part, I approach the matter by considering what is the mischief aimed at by this Act. Everybody knows that this was an Act intended to clean up the streets, to enable people to walk along the streets without being molested or solicited by common prostitutes. Viewed in that way, it can matter little whether the prostitute is soliciting while in the street or is standing in a doorway or on a balcony, or at a window, or whether the window is shut or open or half open; in each case her solicitation is projected to and addressed to somebody walking in the street. For my part, I am content to base my decision on that ground and that ground alone. I think that the magistrate came to a correct conclusion in each case, and that these appeals should be dismissed.’


That the services offered in that case were different from those in the present case needs no underlining but the reasoning of Lord Parker applies in the present context. The driver is plying for hire in the street if his vehicle is positioned in circumstances such that the offer of services is ‘projected to and addressed to’ members of the public in the street.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Fae Fife wrote:
Below are some extracts from the Eastbourne case,
Quote:
… For my part, I approach the matter by considering what is the mischief aimed at by this Act. .


An interesting phrase if taken in the context of the LGMPA, which of course it wasn't in the Eastbourne case.

I don't have time to scour the Act at the moment but, it may be possible to construct an argument around the purpose, as well as the letter, of the legislation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:00 pm 
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THOUGHTS ON THE DEFINITION OF “STREET” AND “PUBLIC PLACE”

STATUTORY PROVISIONS

1) The Town Police Clauses Acts 1847-1889 are construed as one with the Public Health Act
1875 (Section 171 of the PHA 1875);

2) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “street” as any highway… and
public bridge… and any road, lane, footway, square, court, alley or passage whether a
thoroughfare or not:

3) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “road” as a road to which the
public have access and which has houses at either side of it;

4) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “house” as including
buildings where persons are employed;

5) Section 3 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 defines “street” as extending to and
include ANY road, square court alley or thoroughfare, or public passage within the limits
of the special Act.

6) Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 [the interpretation section] defines “road” as in
relation to England and Wales means any highway and any other road to which the public
has access and includes bridges over which a road passes.

7) Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 [the interpretation section] defines both
“bridleway” and “footpath” by reference to a public right of way albeit a restricted one.

8) Section 167 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 [Touting for taxis and hire
cars] defines a “public place” as anywhere to which the public have access whether by
payment or not.

9) Statutory Instrument 2000, No. 726 is as follows:

Council Directive 72/166/EEC (OJ No. L103, 2.5.72, p. 2), as modified by Council Directives
84/5/EEC (OJ No. L8, 11.1.84, p. 17) and 90/232/EEC (OJ No. L129, 19.5.90, p. 33) requires a
Member State to take all appropriate measures to ensure that civil liability in respect of
the use of motor vehicles normally based in its territory is covered by insurance.

Under section 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 ("the 1988 Act") it is an offence to use, or to cause or
permit someone to use, a motor vehicle on a road unless its use is covered by an appropriate policy of
insurance or security ("the insurance requirement"). "Road" is defined in section 192(1) of the
1988 Act, in relation to England and Wales, as any highway or other road to which the
public has access and, in relation to Scotland, as any road or other way to which the public has
access. In the case of Cutter v. Eagle Star Insurance Company Ltd, [1998] 4 All ER 417, it was held
by the House of Lords that the expression did not include a car park or similar public place.

For the purpose of complying with the directives these Regulations amend the 1988 Act first by
extending the insurance requirement to the use of vehicles in public places other than roads and,
secondly, by making provision for the reporting of accidents and the production of insurance

Hackney Carriages Page 1

30/11/2004


documents where an accident occurs in a public place.

PERTINENT CASE LAW

1) Young v Scampion [1988] RTR 95 and references contained therein;
2) Strettle v Knowsley MBC
3) Cutter v. Eagle Star Insurance Company Ltd, [1998] 4 All ER 417;


SKELETON POINTS TO CONSIDER

1) The purpose of the Act-to protect the public at large by licensing controls;
2) The enforcement authority is the Council for the District;
3) The date of the Young decision and the changes brought about by the new requirements to


give EEC legislation effect within national law;
4) The latest parliamentary definition of “road” and;
5) The mischief rule of statutory interpretation.

ARGUMENT FOR CONSIDERATION

1) The RTA 1988, S192 defines “road” without reference to public right of access [unlike

the definition of bridleway and footpath] but by reference merely to public access.
2) The TPCA 1847, S3 defines “street” as including ANY ROAD……;
3) The PHA 1875, S4 defines “street” again as ANY ROAD……;
4) SI 2000, 726 gives effect to the requirement on all member states to ensure civil liability

is covered by insurance whether on a road or other public place.

In Young and Scampion [107B-E] the learned judges cited Curtis v Embery [1872] as
requiring proof that the street must be a public street. It should be noted Curtis v Embery
concerned a railway property case and the position on that type of site was specifically
amended by S76 of the Public Health Act 1925. It is my contention that that case can be
distinguished from the Strettle v Knowsley MBC decision of recent date.

In Strettle the carriage was on a road to which the public were permitted access albeit that this
was by licence and not a right. I am informed that, in the absence of obstruction or
misbehaviour, no traveller along the road would be prevented from going wherever he wished
on the roads within the hospital grounds by anyone at any hour of the day or night. No
barriers are installed on the roads. I am informed it is possible for persons to use the grounds
as a short cut without ever attending any part of the hospital and so I submit it falls both
within the definition of thoroughfare and also road.

As an aside until 1966 the House of Lords held that it could not over rule its previous
decisions. The Practice Direction of that year changed that to allow for changes in
circumstances in Society and practice. It now can in exceptional circumstances over rule itself
and has done so. The law of 100 years ago is open to challenge.

CONCLUSION

In 2001 in reality any person may enter the grounds of Whiston Hospital with a car and drive
upon those roads. The law now requires such use to be covered by insurance. Since 1988 the

Hackney Carriages Page 2

30/11/2004


main definition of a road is “a place to which the public have access” and not a place to
which the public have a right of access.

Street is defined in the 1847 and 1875 Acts as a total of 15 types of place of which only 2 are
connected to the word “public”. The learned judges in Young, I respectfully submit, stand to
be over ruled or at least distinguished.

Any vehicle used or standing for hire in a street, where the public may be found, [privately
owned or otherwise] should therefore fall within the S45 TPCA 1847 offence. I submit that
the decision of the Crown Court, if challenged, could be over turned and distinguished from
Young & Scampion in the circumstances of the Strettle case.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:21 pm 
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MR T Said:

Quote:
Section 167 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 [Touting for taxis and hire
cars] defines a “public place” as anywhere to which the public have access whether by
payment or not.


Our all knowing council has said:

Quote:
"The offence is “in a public place to solicit persons to hire vehicles to carry them as passengers”. The 1994 Act clarifies the meaning of public place in Section 6 as “any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have access (whether on payment or otherwise)”. The mischief intended to be addressed by this legislation was the carriage of persons who were approached at railway stations, bus stations and airports intending to divert them away from regulated licensed vehicles in to unlicensed and unregulated vehicles. Although there is no authority, it does seem clear that the offence can only be committed when the mischief aimed at is present and there has been an approach made to a prospective hirer. It is the active nature of soliciting for hire which distinguishes the offence from unlawful plying for hire.


The key points to note here are that the council dismiss any chance of a plying for hire prosecution - as it is not (in their opinion) the same as touting / soliciting for services.

The intended use of the "Public place" definition in place of a need to describe the offence on "a street, or road", as above, is also dismissed.

The fact that the vehicles are in a "taxi" queue, and on full display seems to have escaped them.


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