Taxi Driver Online

Regulations have changed enourmously for buses over the past decade, taxibus licensing is something for which there are few experts, in the commission.

all the experts are in the trade, few there an odd one in Gateshead, severel in Chelmsford, a good one in oxfordshire and a good one in Wales.

its own licensing area is a term frought for argument, does that mean the commission area or taxi area? frankly no one is positive,

what there is aggreement on is that a taxibus can stray over its own zone for 15 miles part there of from whence it commenced its timetabled run, it cannot breach at all its commission boundary.

it must have its published time tables route on clear display.

it will be interesting to see what airport cars rules they have broken, but one thing is definate unless it is licensed as a taxi or private hire duel it connot be booked as a pod whole fare, only single fare.

if they have been claiming fuel derve levy or whatever its called today, I think they are in deep [edited by admin].

in any case whatever the 15 mile rule is interpretated anyway you please airport cars have breached it, and done so by miles.

the 15 mile rule is an offside trap in this game, a bus can finish its 15 miles and start another 15 miles and so on but I think an 8 seat cannot, certainly not a taxibus.

theres a lot in a name and taxibus has legal significance it was used here as competetive advertising let hope this time it will hang them.

Geoff

one last thing the commission are useless at enforcing they have so few staff.

when they act, the leg work is done by the complaintant and checked, the complaintant even has to check against the rules.

complaints that require commission staff to go on wild goose chases are doomed to failure.

if it turns out that a council or whatever is involved it causes a terrible sour relationship, and councils I know are meticulous in ensuring they dont give advice on commission rules.

the commission hates taxibus licenses, and advice given to me by the commission has not measured up to advice given by the dept of transport.

in this scenario airport caz could yet have a field day.

by the way john about formal warnings, sorry dont see it your way at all.

and how do you know whether the company in its entirerty havnt been given bucket loads of warnings?

commission are carefull there are jobs here/

oh and one thing about taxibus I forgot to mention, if these are run by a driver other than the licensee, that driver must be an employee covered by a master servant relationship.

that term b4 we get pesudo trade unionists jumping up and down is not my term but the commissions,

so he must have a contract of employment, and contracted to do legal things for example if the bus has inefficient brakes he does not take it out
but ensures his employer takes action.

all sterling stuff!

you would think trade unions wold like drivers being protected by legislation wouldnt you?

it seems in some places it depends on the circumstaces, an area without any taxis or private cars like Slaithwaite must be deprived of a taxibus service if people driving taxis in the North East feel insecure.

last march faced with lack of pod transport the government grant aided a community car scheme in this area.

some people on here find it hard to imagine a place without taxis and private hire, and talk about national opperators.

yet there is more land without any provision at all than land with provision.

Cheshire beeing one of the worst provided for in our trade.

Geoff

I picked up on the formal warnings from the DFT website. It points out the penalties for any breach of regulations. That was several weeks ago so I'm working from memory.

It would be interesting if someone far knowledgable than myself on these matters, could shed some light on the full range of sactions which can be brought against an operator who breaches the rules.

The last time I went into this was nearly 20 years ago, back then a taxibus had to be a licensed hackney carriage. It was an additional option afforded to cab drivers should they wish to utlilise their vehicle for carrying passengers at seperate fares on a designated route. As far as I can recall that route had to start in the license holders own Authority.

I can't recall what the maximum mileage was but if you say its 15 miles then I won't disagree with that. I think I'm going to have to look at the 85 act again and read up on the particular section relating to Taxis carrying passengers at seperate fares.

In the meantime it would be helpfull if anyone can supply us with any relevant additional information with regard to any ammendments to this section of the 85 act.

Best wishes

JD

This is a helpful pdf file but it still doesnt tell me what changes have been made since 1985. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/pdf/dft_localtrans_pdf_504004.pdf

Special bus licence for taxi holders: taxibuses (Section 12 of Transport Act 1985.)4. If you have a taxi licence and wish to run your taxi like a bus as a local service with separate fares along a route registered with the Traffic Commissioner, either wholly or for part of the time, you can apply for a special bus licence. You will be required to register a route with at least one stopping place within the area of the local authority which granted the taxi licence. Your vehicle will need to be one for which you hold a taxi licence, display a 'BUS' sign (not an illuminated 'taxi' sign), and display a table of fares; the driver of the 'taxibus' must be licensed as a taxi driver by the same licensing authority as the vehicle. 5. Provided your taxi licence is valid, the issue of the special bus licence should be a formality. Requirements apply to local Traffic Commissioner (details at Annex 1)
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Flexible transport services 9 register the route with local Traffic Commissioner (details at Annex 1) Benefits increased flexibility for taxi operators vehicle can be used for normal taxi services when not being run as a bus service provides passengers with a bus service when a larger vehicle would be uneconomic where appropriate, cheaper for local authority to subsidise a local taxibus service at specific times than a larger bus service taxibus licence holder can qualify for Bus Service Operator Grant (fuel duty rebate) when running local bus service.
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Best wishes

JD

This might help John.
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts ... #sch31ptII

As part of the 2000 Transport Act.
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts ... 000038.htm

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IDFIMH

More, http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/source/xTOC3

Best wishes

JD

I hate this subject because it is so dam confusing.

I think the 1985 Act wasn't ammended in the 2000 Act to stop the o-license abuse, they ammended the 1976 Act.

The 1985 Act only dealt with taxis being used as buses, whereas in your manor they are trying to use PSVs, but it appears that the 2000 Act said that they must use PHs, if they don't use taxis.

I think.

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IDFIMH

Andy,
Therein lies the truth, this firm operate in the shadow of an Act that to my mind has so many interpretations that we may win one day and easily lose on appeal the next.
My opinion is that the fault lies not in the 85 Act but in the 86 Rules and Regulations which more or less left it wide open for the extreme variations to occur. We need hard and fast law not Traffic Area opinions.
The most annoying thing to me has been the ducking and diving, arm twisting and generally looking the other way to allow the following: blatant on street hirings, touting for business at the terminals, CRB checks non existant, Psv licences non existant and an advert right outside arrivals bearing the legend Taxibus with the taxi part in black and the bus part in white against, believe or not, a white background.
We think that at long last we have the ear of the Commissioner and fingers crossed they come down on our side.
Ged

John
yes things have changed in 20 years I was A DEPUTY TRAFFIC COMMISSIONER in those days, and both the commissioners staff and firms would negotiate long and hard to stop us making tribunaral decisions whic are precedents for other cases

public opinion changes things, and sometimes fresh guidelines are issued, offering a differing intrpretation to rules always existed, weird but true.

you are absolutely right when you say a taxibus route has to start in ones own patch, thats certain, where it can end is open to interpretation, but anything over 15 miles is not a bus but excursion, the act says so

nowthen this 15 miles and what you can do with them is creation itself, in my interpretation I can go from my patch to Huddersfield which is the same commission area, different licensing authority, huddersfield is 6miles over the licensing border.

Delp is 3 miles over the commission boundary, in oldham licensing, I cannot go there!

now Wakefield is 15 miles from our boundary within commission boundary
but different authority so I can go to Wakefield, problem is I cannot run the bus back cos thats a new route and begins outside my area.

so if taxibuses stray into other licensing authorities the routes had better be circular, so they can get back so thats 7.5 miles ot and 7.5 miles back maximum.

thats way I see it.

Absolutley correct special note that busses of under 8 seats qualify for vat.

Thank you for those links sussex but although they did guide me in another fruitfull direction the 2000 act itself changes very little in previous legislation, as far as this current issue is concerned.

I think first we have to identify what the current legislation with regard to buses actualy states. The DFT describe it as two fold.

The bus industry is subject to two principal regulatory regimes: Public Service Vehicle (PSV) operator licensing, which governs professional competence; and bus registration, which deals with services and routes.

With respect to Airportcarz, we can safely discount them as holding a H/C or P/H vehicle licence so therefore they must be licenced under the provision of a PSV license. So lets look at what the DFT say about PSV licences.

PSV Operator Licensing

All vehicles which are used to carry fare-paying passengers (legal term: 'hire or reward') are classed as Public Service Vehicles (PSVs) and, except in special circumstances (see the guide 'Passenger Transport provided by voluntary groups'), their operators must obtain a PSV operator's licence from the relevant Traffic Commissioner (the licensing authority for PSVs in Great Britain). It is an offence to use a vehicle to carry passengers for hire and reward without a PSV operator's licence

Now we know the type of licence they operate under, we can start applying the law as per the 1847 act and the relevent acts subsequently enacted since that date.

For the purpose of enforcement we have to rely on the traffic commission but from personal past experiance I can say that the traffic commission have not always been dilligent in carrying out their obligatory investigation and enforcement duties. Perhaps things have changed since the 1980's. However, here is what the DFT have to say about their duties.

Enforcement of the operator licensing requirements is carried out by the Traffic Commissioners assisted by Inspectors from the Vehicle Inspectorate (part of the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency) who check operators' maintenance arrangements, the condition of vehicles (issuing prohibition notices where appropriate) and undertake investigations and prosecutions.

The Traffic Commissioner may disqualify an operator from holding an 'O' licence, place conditions on his licence prohibiting the use of specified vehicles, or require him to conduct safety inspections at regular intervals. They may also reduce the maximum number of vehicles authorised on the licence or suspend or revoke the licence altogether


Added to the above are the obligations and penalties an operator has to comply with when submitting a route application. It should be noted that the financial penalty will not exceed 550.00 per vehicle.

Local Bus Service Registration

Bus operators who run local services are required to register them with the Traffic Commissioner. The primary objective is to ensure that all services are run by properly licensed operators and to provide an element of stability to the bus network - operators must give notice to the Traffic Commissioner if they wish to vary individual registrations. But the Traffic Commissioner does not have power to reject a valid registration or notice of variation, provided the necessary information about the service is provided (route, timetable etc).

Once a service has been registered, operators are required to run it in accordance with the registered details. Failure to run a service in accordance with the registered details may result in an operator being brought before the Traffic Commissioner at a Public Inquiry. The Traffic Commissioner has the power to impose a financial penalty on bus operators who are in breach of their registration. In more severe cases, the Traffic Commissioner can also put conditions on an operator's licence prohibiting him from running certain local services, or any local service at all.

It is noted that the Transport commissioner has no power to reject a valid registration or variation.

Without going into lengthy detail and analysis the following links should be of some use to those persons who wish to inform themselves of the current and future plans for local transport services.

Particular note should taken of the reference to the 2000 transport act which closed a loophole in the 1985 act which allowed certain unlicensed vehicles to perform the duties of a private hire vehicle.

The reference to this loophole should be of concern to those wishing to prosecute a case against any psv operator who practices individual private hire telephone bookings without holding a Private hire license of any kind.

It would be wise to read the significant changes which the Government propose for Rural Transport. Of note is the reference to the Wiggly bus of wiltshire and the proposed changes to allow more flexibility of this type of service.

From what I have read I am still of the opinion that the word Taxibus or in part the word Taxi, contravenes existing legislation. The word Taxi cannot be used in reference to any vehicle which is not in whole or part a Taxi service.

I hope someone can point me to a legal reference or legislation that contradicts my opinion.

The following links should be most helpful to those wishing to learn more about local transport services.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/page/dft_localtrans_503970.pdf

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00038-ap.htm#265

http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/ruralwp/default.htm

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/page/dft_localtrans_023539.hcsp


Best wishes

JD

Stop Press.
VOSA and others were doing vehicle emissions at the airport Wednesday last.Lo and behold suddenly only 12 seaters were plying for hire at the Carzie rank all with Psv holders.
The following day it was back to normal and the usual 9 seaters were operating, Vosa men reappeared and the first one they caught did not have the Psv requirement.
Now we have had word from GMP that a prosecution is in the pipeline. Great but if this guy is an employee just who will be prosecuted ....
the licence holder or the driver? This is an indicator of the contempt of this company,this is the day after they are told that they face a full inquiry into their activities.
Geoff, I think that your memories of your days at the Traffic Comms confirms my suspicions that we need case law and not opinions. Even now your examples are talking strictly about bus services when we all know what is happening here is Taxi/Private Hire by the back door.
Ged

I would say both the driver and the operator, because both have (maybe) breached the law. A bit like the Limo prosecutions, where both driver and owner got done.

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IDFIMH

Ged
we can safely assume the license holder wont be prosecuted, as you said the vehicle did not have a license so there is no license holder?

The vehicle owner will be prosecuted for allowing his vehicle to be used unlawfully.

The driver will be prosecuted he has a duty to ensure its licensed b4 he drives it.

the owner could be a company in which case black marks will be given

how about this, a driver can end up in the nick, the company cannot.

they are a load of sharks Ged

and notice how Mick tries to tie me up with that lot!