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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:03 pm 
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MR T wrote:
I seem to remember reading a case on entrapment, it took place in Wales, regarding using licensing officers..... they were found to be breaking the law.... most councils now use volunteers from orther departments... as they do not have a particular advantage regarding the law over the driver in question. I think I would be re reading the laws relating to entrapment.
:lol:
I reckon it's deffo a case of entrapment by a jobsworth trying to look busy to try and justify their own positions. Then it's a case of the courts passing the buck while a **** load of taxpayers money is getting wasted along the line.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:06 pm 
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dagger wrote:
I reckon it's deffo a case of entrapment by a jobsworth trying to look busy to try and justify their own positions. Then it's a case of the courts passing the buck while a **** load of taxpayers money is getting wasted along the line.


The action may have come as a result of complaints.

The driver, as I understand, has not been convicted of anything yet.

CC

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:14 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
dagger wrote:
I reckon it's deffo a case of entrapment by a jobsworth trying to look busy to try and justify their own positions. Then it's a case of the courts passing the buck while a **** load of taxpayers money is getting wasted along the line.


The action may have come as a result of complaints.

The driver, as I understand, has not been convicted of anything yet.

CC
If the action had come as a result of complaints then the undercover LO would have had to have requested for that certain driver if the complaints were solely against him which would have looked suspicious when the phone call was recieved at the taxi office. If it was not against the certain individual and it was happening across the board then maybe a little warning to operators would have done the trick. If it is all against the laws though even though the driver may have broken one iI think the operator should have had action taken against them or clarify to them that set fees cannot be arranged over the phone and only approximates given.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:25 pm 
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dagger wrote:
If the action had come as a result of complaints then the undercover LO would have had to have requested for that certain driver if the complaints were solely against him which would have looked suspicious when the phone call was recieved at the taxi office. If it was not against the certain individual and it was happening across the board then maybe a little warning to operators would have done the trick. If it is all against the laws though even though the driver may have broken one iI think the operator should have had action taken against them or clarify to them that set fees cannot be arranged over the phone and only approximates given.


I dont think we should hang anyone as of yet, and as the case is on going it wouldnt be fair on anyone to pass judgement.

In respect of the Operator however, I see your point, but there is no such thing as a Hackney Carriage Operator's license, therefore the operator cannot be found guilty of anything.

The 1847 act is fairly clear on this subject......as is the 1976 act, which has already been posted.

The 1847 act states;

55 Agreement to pay more than the legal fare

No agreement whatever made with the driver, or with any person having or pretending to have the care of any such hackney carriage, for the payment of more than the fare allowed by any byelaw made under this or the special Act, shall be binding on the person making the same; and any such person may, notwithstanding such agreement, refuse, on discharging such hackney carriage, to pay any sum beyond the fare allowed as aforesaid; and if any person actually pay to the driver of any such hackney carriage, whether in pursuance of any such agreement or otherwise, any sum exceeding the fare to which such driver was entitled, the person paying the same shall be entitled, on complaint made against such driver before any justice of the peace, to recover back the sum paid beyond the proper fare, and moreover such driver shall be liable to a penalty for such exaction not exceeding [level 3 on the standard scale]; and in default of the repayment by such driver of such excess of fare, or of payment of the said penalty, such justice shall forthwith commit such driver to prison, there to remain for any time not exceeding one month, unless the said excess of fare and the said penalty be sooner paid.

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:04 am 
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South Kesteven are the only council that deregulated fares

Because they de-regged they no longer have to ask for objections to be lodged and drivers can suit themselves what level they charge


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:36 am 
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mancityfan wrote:
South Kesteven are the only council that deregulated fares

Because they de-regged they no longer have to ask for objections to be lodged and drivers can suit themselves what level they charge


That could be confusing for customers. In reality, I wonder how many different tariffs there are in South Kesteven and if there are some company's fares that are identical which could be seen as price fixing.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:10 pm 
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I can only speak from experience regarding the HC's working our PH system. Quite a while ago now when it became apparent to the LO that there were quite a lot of HC's attached to PH companies in my area they sent a memo out to all companies for the benefit of such drivers. The memo if I remember it correctly was something along the lines of 'all HC's covering PH work must always have their meter on and can only charge the lesser of the two fares i.e HC rate set by council or PH rate set by the company'

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
That could be confusing for customers. In reality, I wonder how many different tariffs there are in South Kesteven and if there are some company's fares that are identical which could be seen as price fixing.



Following a court case?As they could not have a condition requiring everyone to work off a meter set to the council tariff ….they thought Oh dear we won’t set fares anymore we will just issue on optional tariff to help the public….very sad!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:18 pm 
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At last the judgement appears.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Adm ... /3011.html

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:01 pm 
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Council's barrister said;

But at least we have this back on track and no doubt this will be reported somewhere and people will pay attention to it, particularly the comments you made.

Got that right fella, so far 1000 views on TDO and article on the IoL site.

Money well spent, even if the judges had to confirm the f***ing obvious. :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:55 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Council's barrister said;

But at least we have this back on track and no doubt this will be reported somewhere and people will pay attention to it, particularly the comments you made.

Got that right fella, so far 1000 views on TDO and article on the IoL site.

Money well spent, even if the judges had to confirm the f***ing obvious. :roll: :roll:

So how do you read the comments on the IoL website?

Or do you have to be an IoL member to do so?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:04 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So how do you read the comments on the IoL website?

I'm not sure there are comments to read, just blog type articles on the right hand side of the site.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:24 am 
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Quote:
did undertake a journey in a hackney carriage, plate number 015, used as a private hire vehicle from Walton Hall Wellesbourne to the Heritage Motor Centre Gaydon, and carried out the journey knowingly charging Vikki Goodman more than what would have been the meter fare, which would have been £20.10p and the charged fare being £32


If he thinks a hackney is a private hire then no offence was commited?
But we know a hackney is always a hackney so you would think our learned friends would know the difference.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:07 pm 
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PREVIOUSLY ON THIS THREAD

Brummie Cabbie wrote:
I have now been reliably informed by the owner of the taxi firm involved, that the council took the case to the divisional court for judicial review. The judicial review was against the Magistrates’ Court decision which was included in the IoL article & stated;

‘They also decided to exclude the officer’s evidence under section 78 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 as the driver had been persuaded to commit the alleged offences and the officer’s evidence was unfair.’

From what I have been told, it is would appear that because of this action by the Magistrates’ Court the council were successful in their judicial review. All that seems to have happened is that the divisional court has given a judicial review judgment in favour of the council, for the case to be re-heard by a different bench at Stratford-upon-Avon Magistrates’ Court, but this time to include the officer’s evidence.

It appears that the divisional court did not agree that the officer’s evidence should have been excluded in the Magistrates’ Court. Therefore, it seems that all that has happened in this case is NOTHING.

The case now starts afresh in the Stratford-upon-Avon Magistrates’ Court at a future date which is yet to be fixed.

It’s only 23 miles down the road from me & I’m going to have a listen when it come up.


AND: In part of the Judicial Review's written judgement it was wrote:

LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: . . . .

31. This case perhaps illustrates the difficulties that can arise if magistrates are invited to make such rulings on the basis of submissions alone and without hearing any evidence whatsoever.

32. For these reasons I would answer both of the two questions posed in the case stated in the negative and I would propose that the case be remitted to the Stratford-on-Avon Magistrates' Court for a hearing to proceed before a fresh bench of magistrates.

33. MR JUSTICE OPENSHAW: I entirely agree. I add only this, which is not directed at Mr Burton, who did not appear below and bears no responsibility for what happened. The application made at the Magistrates' Court to exclude the evidence of the local authority officers was made entirely without any advance notice to the court or to the prosecution. This type of forensic ambush should never happen. It is a clear obligation under the overriding objective of the Criminal Procedure Rules to give such notice and the failure to do so is, at best, highly regrettable, and, at worst, a breach of professional obligation to the court and to the other parties and, in my judgment, such conduct should not pass without some specific condemnation.

34. LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: Right then, Mr Leigh.

35. MR LEIGH: I am very grateful, my Lord.

36. So far as costs are concerned, it seems there is little I can do because the respondent is -- benefit from a legal aid certificate and I cannot, as a local authority, ask for my costs out of central funds because I am expressly excluded by the provisions of the relevant Act.

37. LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: You are not asking for a pools order, are you?

38. MR LEIGH: No, I am not instructed to do so. We considered the point, but one [can] imagine the answer we are going to get, given the circumstances. It is unfortunate. It has cost the authority money to come here to sort out something which, with due respect, should never have arisen in the first place, but your fellow judge has made the point, and no doubt that will go ringing in someone's ears at some point. But at least we have this back on track and no doubt this will be reported somewhere and people will pay attention to it, particularly the comments you made.

39. LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: So it is no order as to costs? That is what you are advising us to do? I should think, if that is the invitation, Mr Burton is hardly likely to submit anything to the contrary.

40. MR LEIGH: My Lord understands to try and persuade you would be rather -- one would do one's best, but one imagines I am really knocking on a firmly closed door and I do not want to waste time on something I think is hopeless.

41. LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: You are agreed that it should go back and, presumably, that if it goes back it should go back to a fresh bench?

42. MR LEIGH: That would be our view. I know my learned friend indicated that he would want to persuade you not to send it back. I do not know whether he still wants to try and do that, but clearly our case would be, in those circumstances, especially given what your Lordships have said, we would certainly want this to go back to the magistrates and the trial can properly continue.

43. LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN: There is no advantage, even if it were possible, to get this bench together again and query whether that would be possible, because they hardly embarked on the thing, so it is not as though they have virtually got to the end of a very long and difficult case and it only just remains to tidy up odds and ends with a legal direction. Effectively, it has to start again anyway because no evidence had been given.

44. MR LEIGH: It would be quicker to go back to the magistrates and a fresh bench than try to get the same magistrates all together on the same occasion.


Well this case went back to Magistrates Court on 23rd February 2010, but not to Stratford-upon-Avon.

It went to Nuneaton Magistrates Court instead. And unfortunately, even though I was informed of the date & venue beforehand, I could not attend after all.

However, Brian with a Y has reliably informed me that the outcome was as follows;

Mr Dyde was found guilt of the offences, but (and here’s the bit I can’t understand), the Magistrates gave him an absolute discharge & there was no fine.

Furthermore, the council asked for £5,000 costs, but the Magistrates only awarded them £1,000, which obviously must be paid by Mr Dyde, or the fighting fund that was being set up.

And that’s all I know.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:11 pm 
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If it was a Judicial review originally, why did it go to a mere (and lowly.....take note sussex) magistrate?

Was the appeal on something different?

CC

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