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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:45 pm 
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My lad had a fare last night where the chap just got out of the taxi and walked off. My lad shouted after him to ask him to pay the fare but he refused and just kept walking. Now we know the address where this chap lives because we have taken him home before without any problems. My son rang the police and they told him it was a civil matter. When pushed because my son insisted that it was a criminal matter as per a thread on here a bit back, the policeman said it was a civil matter because we had carried him before so he was a regular customer. Is this correct or is he just being fobbed off?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:38 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Is this correct or is he just being fobbed off?

He is being fobbed off, ask to speak to an Inspector, or e-mail the Chief Constable.

Saying as he is a regular it's ok, is akin to saying folks can nick what they like from Tesco's if they shop there regularly.

Quote the 2006 Fraud Act to them, particularly section 11.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/uk ... #pb2-l1g11

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:41 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
grandad wrote:
Is this correct or is he just being fobbed off?

He is being fobbed off, ask to speak to an Inspector, or e-mail the Chief Constable.

Saying as he is a regular it's ok, is akin to saying folks can nick what they like from Tesco's if they shop there regularly.

Quote the 2006 Fraud Act to them, particularly section 11.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/uk ... #pb2-l1g11


It is already printed off ready for our visit tomorrow. :mrgreen: :wink:

Strange that you should use the tesco analogy, that is exactly what I said to them earlier. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Well my son and I went to the police station and they still insisted that it was a civil matter. I showed the person on the desk the information that was on here and he was just not interested. He asked my son how much money was involved and when my son replied that it was £5.00 he flipped. Going on about wasting police time and to go away and forget it. We refused and I asked to speak to a senior officer. He said that I could speak to the chief constable if I liked, but it wouldn't make any difference. I asked him to make the appointment for me. :mrgreen:
He then dissapeared into a back office and came back a few minutes later and sort of agreed that it was a criminal matter and we could report it as such but we would still get nowhere because there was no evidence. It would be the other guys word against my sons. We are now trying to get some more information. The vehicle has a tracker in it so we can at least prove that my son was where the incident occured.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Typical grandad you have my sympathy.

I wonder why the police thought they could do nothing, I wonder what they would say to you if your son went round to the guys house with a brick and said to the guy, pay me my fiver or lose your window?

I doubt it would be his word against yours then.

CC

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:58 pm 
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As Sussex said in anothe thread, it is not the ammount but the principal.
On a similar note, when someone drives off from a garage forecourt allegedly without paying for their fuel, I was told today that unless the cctv cameras actually show that the digits on the pump are going round it is a similar situation regarding evidence. One persons word against another.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:49 pm 
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grandad wrote:
My lad had a fare last night where the chap just got out of the taxi and walked off. My lad shouted after him to ask him to pay the fare but he refused and just kept walking. Now we know the address where this chap lives because we have taken him home before without any problems. My son rang the police and they told him it was a civil matter. When pushed because my son insisted that it was a criminal matter as per a thread on here a bit back, the policeman said it was a civil matter because we had carried him before so he was a regular customer. Is this correct or is he just being fobbed off?


What's your location Grandad?

Here's my experience

Dear Chief Constable

Re:- Incident No. 0272 – 27/6/2009 / Officer collar no. 4920

I refer to the above incident, write to register my concern that the matter was not dealt with appropriately by the officer concerned and require that the matter be reconsidered and request that the individual involved be formally charged in connection with the crime of theft he committed against me.

The Incident.

I am a taxi driver. Around 4.am on the morning of Saturday, 27th June I picked up a seemingly respectable individual from the taxi rank at Greenside Place. In view of the individual’s inability to articulate properly because he was intoxicated with alcohol, I had some difficulty determining the precise address to which he wished to be taken. However, when I asked where it was I was able to discern him telling me that it was “ … just before D. Mains”.

On agreement that he would direct me once we got there I set off. The individual promptly fell asleep. Passing Groathill Road North at Ferry Road I awoke the individual. I asked where I was to go and he said straight on. I came to the mini roundabout at Silverknowes Road and he directed me into Davidsons Mains. At the mini roundabout at Quality Street I enquired again and he directed me to turn right. We drove all the way to Cramond with no objection from the individual.

Turning right at the junction with Gamekeeper’s Road I asked which turning and he said to take the second on the right. We pulled into a cul-de-sac and it was evident that he didn’t have a clue where he was. Although I still couldn’t understand his poor articulation of his address, further inquiry elicited the information that his destination was at the Waterfront development near Scottish Gas.

I then took him directly to the new development in West Granton Road, ascertained it was the right place and drove him into the estate to his destination. I asked for payment to the amount displayed on the meter which he refused to pay on the basis that it was more than he had paid on his journey uptown the previous evening. I explained what had transpired but he was having none of it. He still refused to pay. I explained to him that it was an offence to refuse payment and that if he did refuse I would not hesitate to take him to the police station and report the offence.

He continued with his refusal to pay and, with his agreement, we then made our way to Drylaw police station where I called the police call centre, was given the incident no. and instructed to wait at the police station for police attention. The metered fare was £18.70p.

I was able to attract the attention of two officers exiting the station, who attended and managed the situation. Officer 4920 spoke to the individual and was given his driving licence as identification which, although he had moved domicile around three months before, did not bear his correct address.

Following discussion with the individual, the officer indicated to me that although he had asked him to pay the fare, the individual continued to refuse based on his premise that it was more than the amount he had paid the previous evening on his outward journey.

The officer then explained to me his contention that the matter was a civil one and that my only redress was to pursue it through civil court proceedings. My response was that this was illogical nonsense. However, given that the facts of the case would be properly recorded, I allowed the matter to rest pending consultation and further action on my part.

During this process the officer asked the individual if he did in fact have sufficient money to pay for the fare and his willingly opening his wallet showed that he possessed £25 in notes, more than enough to pay the fare.

Although both the officer and I gave the individual ample opportunity to make payment, he continued to refuse, saying he was only prepared to pay what it had cost him the previous evening to go uptown. He was under the impression that I should still take him home under the circumstances being dictated by him and still refused to pay even though I agreed that if he paid the meter fare I would return him home as an act of good faith.

The crime

It is a fundamental principle of our Law that theft is the taking and appropriating of property without the consent of its rightful owner or other lawful authority.

The advice to me of a former Procurator Fiscal confirms that the offence committed here is a criminal offence, not a civil one.

In this case, the value of the service provided to him by me is represented as it is incurred by the incrementing value represented on the taximeter. The final total represents the liability to be paid for and it is only when the taxi is properly disengaged, and payment received, that discharge of the liability is obtained by the receiver and the service/goods provided paid for.

By refusing to pay his fare, and by exiting and walking away from the vehicle without meeting his lawful obligation to pay the fare incurred, this individual has stolen the price of the fare from me and has thereby committed a theft.

Had the individual not had sufficient funds to pay the fare, he could have been deemed to have committed an act of fraud by engaging a taxi without the means to pay. However, this individual, as witnessed by the attending officer(s), had ample means to meet his commitment to pay, which in Law renders his refusal and walking away from the taxi without paying, a deliberate act of theft.

In this way, this individual’s actions are no different to that of a shoplifter stealing goods, a bank worker stealing money or any other common thief stealing the rightful property of another - all indictable criminal offences.

I submit due process should have been followed, that the individual concerned should have been cautioned, charged with criminal theft and a report submitted to the Procurator Fiscal.

Right of redress

Any individual has a right of redress where he believes that he has been unfairly or improperly charged for a taxi journey undertaken.

The right of redress available to this individual in this circumstance was for him to pay the fare requested, obtain a receipt for same, note the driver’s identity which would be afforded to him on request and/or note the licence no. of the taxi and then make proper representation to the licensing authority.

I understand that this individual is a “bank manager” by profession and it is therefore not unreasonable to expect that the knowledge of such a procedure is well within his ability to know and understand.

However, the right of redress in Law for this circumstance, or any other such commercial circumstance for that matter, does not allow an individual to simply refuse to pay. Clearly, if such a provision did exist it would bring chaos to our economic system.

Conclusion

In view of the above I contend that the attending officer has applied the wrong premise to this case. A crime of theft has been committed.

I formally request that matters concerning this incident should be reviewed, that the individual should be cautioned forthwith, charged with theft and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law in order to maintain Law and Order and ensure the integrity of our policing, justice and economic systems.

I would also request that the outcome of this matter, and the legal circumstances pertaining to it, be advised to all serving officers for future reference, as well as circulated throughout the taxi trade.

Should you be unable or unwilling to accede to these requests please write advising me of your reasons.

Thank you for your assistance with this matter.


I am now in p[olice complaints procedure. Which is about the police ignoring my complaint. If you like I could let you view that correspondence.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:55 pm 
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I think that letter would probably cost Grandad more in ink than the fare was worth. :lol:

CC

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:10 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
I think that letter would probably cost Grandad more in ink than the fare was worth. :lol:

CC


:lol: :lol: Thanks for the letter Jasbar. My son has got the runners name and has given it to the police. They say they will now pay the chap a visit and report back within 28 days. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:01 pm 
Quote the theft act to them. They'll chase someone for nicking a 60p Mars Bar from ASDA with cars and a helicopter but they'll tell you it's a civil matter when it comes to a bilking.

I had one last Saturday morning at around 4am, picked up at an address, they wanted to go to the 24 hour garage for some beer and come back to the address. When we got back the fare was £16, he said we haven't got any money on us will you take this phone then we'll pay you the money tomorrow? I said yes but I want the beer to. The beer was in the boot so they couldn't get at it plus I had the mobile phone in my hand. I said ring me when you've got the money and I'll bring you the beer back and the phone for the fare. Their faces were a picture.

Saturday afternoon I logged on and the operator said to me "have you got some beer and a mobile phone"? I said yes have they been on the phone? He said yes can you take it back? Yep I said, I put the clock on again and off I went. Got to the address handed over the beer and the phone for £16 plus another £7 that was on the meter total £23. Play them at their own games.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Grandad, this is one of those situations that will take more effort than the immediate loss is worth. However, it is my belief that all such incidents should be followed through to their conclusion for the greater good.

In the event that you don't get satisfaction, complaints must be made through the appropriate channels.

Our LA are actively encouraging us to report all incidents to the police, securing a crime number, and the licencing office. It is only when this happens and statistics are produced that the authorities can see the extent of the problem that we have to face.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:51 pm 
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grandad wrote:
He then dissapeared into a back office and came back a few minutes later and sort of agreed that it was a criminal matter and we could report it as such but we would still get nowhere because there was no evidence. It would be the other guys word against my sons. We are now trying to get some more information. The vehicle has a tracker in it so we can at least prove that my son was where the incident occured.

I would make a formal complaint against that person on the desk. That's the only way it's going to get past thick officials.

As for the evidence, well actually that's what we pay the police for. They should go to the fella, question him, and then decide if there is a case to answer. They should give him a fixed penalty and if he doesn't like it have his day in court.

If he denies it, then it will be hard to prove in a criminal court, but easier in the small claims (County) court. Especially as I doubt he will turn up.

Don't give up on this one. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:23 pm 
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cabbyman wrote:
Grandad, this is one of those situations that will take more effort than the immediate loss is worth. However, it is my belief that all such incidents should be followed through to their conclusion for the greater good.

In the event that you don't get satisfaction, complaints must be made through the appropriate channels.

Our LA are actively encouraging us to report all incidents to the police, securing a crime number, and the licencing office. It is only when this happens and statistics are produced that the authorities can see the extent of the problem that we have to face.


I spoke to our licensing officer this afternoon and the situation is going to be put on the agenda for the next taxi meeting so that we can ask the police directly. As for the reporting all instances, I am going to volunteer to be the contact point for drivers so that at least, as drivers we will have some idea of numbers and I will report them all to the LO.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Sussex wrote:

Don't give up on this one. :wink:


No, we are going to carry on because we know the person by sight and now we know his name as well. One of my other sons knows him and is going to "have a word" if you know what I mean. :wink: Nothing nasty, just sugest that it may be a good idea to pay up.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:53 am 
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captain cab wrote:
I think that letter would probably cost Grandad more in ink than the fare was worth. :lol:

CC


Why does it not surprise me that the NTA is NOT on the case?

So what's the point of the NTA?



:wink:

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Skull, "You are a police inspector, aren't you?"
Cab Inspector Smith, "Yes."
Skull, "So, are you going to tell Mr Taylor what his rights are?"
Smith, "And ... What rights?"


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