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 Post subject: Nat limo press release
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:16 pm 
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IMMEDIATE NLCA PRESS RELEASE

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Below is a statement on behalf of the NLCA concerning the licensing of limousines, I am sure that you will be concerned over the contents just as all sensible operators are. After years of striving to get every limousine on the roads into either PSV or PHV licensing, the industry has been dealt a blow which, especially in the current hard economic times, could see the demise of many an operator. For years we have campaigned for more, better and specific legislation, and after being consistently refused and told to work within the existing licensing framework, we find that the goal posts have not only moved, but may have been taken off the pitch.

I trust that you will use our statement to highlight the current and future problems that operators who want to comply with the law may face.

Yours Sincerely

Bill Bowling
Legislation Officer
National Limousine and Chauffeur Association



3rd March 2010


I have been informed yesterday that, as a result of a meeting of the Traffic Commissioners earlier this week, that they have decided that “after clarification from the DfT” they will no longer issue PSV licences for the operation of small vehicles.

The result is that many operators, who have spent time, money and effort in attempting to become licensed, are now being left out in the cold, unable to gain either PSV or PHV status. This on its own is disastrous, but what makes it even more damning is the statement that the Traffic Commissioners will be readdressing those already licensed, and quote “with a period of grace, may have their PSV operators status rescinded”. The poorest form of law is retrospective legislation, and this would rank as abysmal. I have not as yet received the courtesy of any formal contact from the Traffic Commissioners regarding their statement of intent, despite their own mission statement that “we are committed to being a good partner”. As both a stakeholder and the legislation officer for the National Trade Association for limousines, I have not been involved with any of the considerations or decision making process.

After years of working with VOSA, the Traffic Commissioners and the DfT operators, and in particular, the NLCA feels that the Traffic Commissioners have abdicated their responsibilities on the lines that it is easier to refuse than to sort it out. After a joint stance between VOSA and the NLCA to promote the licensing of limousines, and the past support of the Traffic Commissioners, I am extremely disappointed to find that, presumably at the behest of the lead Traffic Commissioner on limousines Mr Nick Jones, that the whole panel of Traffic Commissioners have withdrawn their support.

Only a year ago I listened to Mr Jones congratulate an operator of eight passenger limousines on gaining his license and welcoming him to the fold of legal operators. The NLCA does not accept the Traffic Commissioners statements, and intends to challenge the decision at every license application. What was the point in creating “small vehicle rules” “limousine and novelty vehicle rules” and to keep accepting applications and payments just to do a complete about face on policy? Even now the initial press statement just released on the matter is unclear; it does not say if all small vehicles are included in this ruling, or whether or not it is purely limousines. Questions about the great number of operators who have built businesses based on the previous grant of PSV operators licenses remain, what can they do when their licenses are due for renewal?

I feel that the whole of the limousine and chauffeur industry has been seriously let down by the DfT and the Traffic Commissioners, promises made in the past by the senior Traffic Commissioner Mr Philip Brown to work with the industry turn out to be hollow. Years of striving to achieve a good working relationship with the Traffic Commissioners appears wasted.

The DfT has compounded the problem by lack of clear and definite guidance, wishy washy statements to local licensing authorities, coupled with the vagaries of the Local government miscellaneous provisions act (1976) means that we still have over one hundred of the four hundred and four local licensing authorities who do not license limousines, and around another hundred who pay lip service to licensing limousines. For a local authority to state that they will license limousines and then add “but no left hand drive vehicles” “no side facing seats” “no non type approved vehicles” and so on is a smoke screen to state that they comply when they never had any intent to do so. I currently have around thirty pages of restriction from different local licensing authorities, including the most ridiculous one, which emanated from the DfT, stating that “No American stretched limousine shall look like, or purport to be a London style black cab”. With statements of this ilk how can operators view either the DfT or the local licensing authorities with any serious form of respect?

The local authority licensing rules are inadequate in its maintenance regime. With a maximum of one MOT test and two further inspections per annum, this means that limousines may go from seventeen to fifty two weeks between inspections, again another case of tick all the boxes even if the wheels fall off the wagon. The NLCA has always maintained that the maximum time interval between inspections should be ten weeks, and under the PSV route this has become the accepted norm. This should be addressed by the DfT as a serious omission when considering licensing.

Imagine the scenario when all the small limousine operators, both existing and proposed, have their PSV operators licenses revoked, add to this the 50% of local licensing authorities who do not or will not realistically license limousines. The industry will revert to the dark ages of operators running unlicensed. With no realistic or a sensible and consistent regime, anarchy will rule. Drug dealers, money launderers, and the like will flourish; good honest businesses will either die or turn illegal to exist. VOSA with its limitations on finance and manpower will not be able to adequately police the law. The police will continue to have very little understanding of the law governing limousines, and uninsured and unlicensed operators will once again become the norm.

After years of trying to convince operators that the DfT, VOSA, Traffic Commissioners the police and the NLCA are all on the same side, I now find it increasingly difficult to support this argument, and now feel that we are effectively on opposing sides with less common ground than ever in the last thirty years.

I have implored the DfT and Traffic Commissioners to look at the latest decision again, consider the ramifications, involve the NLCA at the decision making stage, and finally commit to a positive programme of licensing on a national basis (under the administration of the Traffic Commissioners) for all limousines both up to and over eight passenger seats. The problem is surmountable with the will of government and the commitment of all involved.

If any operator of a limousine, novelty vehicle, business car, minibus or people carrier of less than nine seats capacity currently works under a PSV “O” license, then they are at serious risk of losing their livelihood. The NLCA needs every operator who may be affected to join in the campaign and support what will inevitably be a long, arduous and expensive series of challenges through the courts.

The NLCA will be calling an extraordinary meeting in the near future to establish the route forward, every operator in the UK is invited to attend and all offers of support in any form will be gratefully received.


Bill Bowling
Legislation Officer
National Limousine and Chauffeur Association

http://www.nlca.co.uk/news.php

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:56 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
I have been informed yesterday that, as a result of a meeting of the Traffic Commissioners earlier this week, that they have decided that “after clarification from the DfT” they will no longer issue PSV licences for the operation of small vehicles.

\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:21 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
captain cab wrote:
I have been informed yesterday that, as a result of a meeting of the Traffic Commissioners earlier this week, that they have decided that “after clarification from the DfT” they will no longer issue PSV licences for the operation of small vehicles.

\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/



I have put my bit about limos on here more than once but if I have got this riight I think they need support, as this effect the ones that have done the right thing and got a opperators license, it also effects mini buses and anyone running on a VOSA restricted O license with motors 8 seats and less, airport work etc.
PS I still think self drive hire stinks and the unlicensed ones but if they have a license they should have support,it could be us next , do you trust your council. I DONT.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:23 pm 
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Surely anything like this would have to go to consultation?

CC

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:47 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Surely anything like this would have to go to consultation?

CC


Why?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:13 am 
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grandad wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Surely anything like this would have to go to consultation?

CC


Why?


Because all of a sudden the rules have changed?

CC

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:40 am 
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captain cab wrote:
grandad wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Surely anything like this would have to go to consultation?

CC


Why?


Because all of a sudden the rules have changed?

What consultation has there been over the amendment to section 16 that's being passed soon? :D

In relation to small PSV Limos, well in my view they are getting what they deserve.

The PSV Limo trade make a big thing about being legal, but I doubt one in a hundred adhere to the separate fare legislation.

So VOSA have a choice, enforce or ban, and thankfully they have decided on the ban.

I applaud them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:07 am 
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This change in the law is not totaly to do with limos. It is the next step after the repeal of the contract exemption. It will affect far more operators than limo operators. It will effect all the company's operating under PCV rules that use smaller vehicles as a part of their operation. For years big operators have been able to operate a percentage of smaller vehicles without the need for further licensing and in more recent times if an operator has a national license he can actually run ALL small vehicles. So it is these people who are going to be hit hardest by this change.
Basically anyone who operates a vehicle with upto 8 passenger seats will have to be licensed by their local authority and anyone operating 9 or more seats will be with VOSA.
Some would say that this is a very good move as it will get rid of the imbalance and create a level playing field for all operators of vehicles up to 8 seats and this may be the reason for doing this. However there is a sting in the tail for operators of vehicles with more than 5 and upto 8 seats in that there are plans to stop these vehicles from being licensed as well. So any of you who at present use people carriers and 8 seat minibuses, watch out because you are the next targets.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:30 am 
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grandad wrote:
This change in the law is not totaly to do with limos. It is the next step after the repeal of the contract exemption. It will affect far more operators than limo operators. It will effect all the company's operating under PCV rules that use smaller vehicles as a part of their operation. For years big operators have been able to operate a percentage of smaller vehicles without the need for further licensing and in more recent times if an operator has a national license he can actually run ALL small vehicles. So it is these people who are going to be hit hardest by this change.
Basically anyone who operates a vehicle with upto 8 passenger seats will have to be licensed by their local authority and anyone operating 9 or more seats will be with VOSA.
Some would say that this is a very good move as it will get rid of the imbalance and create a level playing field for all operators of vehicles up to 8 seats and this may be the reason for doing this. However there is a sting in the tail for operators of vehicles with more than 5 and upto 8 seats in that there are plans to stop these vehicles from being licensed as well. So any of you who at present use people carriers and 8 seat minibuses, watch out because you are the next targets.

So where would that put proprietors & drivers of the now very popular Peugeot E7 & similar 6/7/8 Hackney cabs.

Conversely, if they do bring in a 5 seater maximum passenger limit on Hackneys, then are they trying to get more fares for the Hackney (& PH for that matter) trades?

So, if 6, 7 or 8 passengers want to travel together, they would have to hire two licensed vehicles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:42 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
grandad wrote:
This change in the law is not totaly to do with limos. It is the next step after the repeal of the contract exemption. It will affect far more operators than limo operators. It will effect all the company's operating under PCV rules that use smaller vehicles as a part of their operation. For years big operators have been able to operate a percentage of smaller vehicles without the need for further licensing and in more recent times if an operator has a national license he can actually run ALL small vehicles. So it is these people who are going to be hit hardest by this change.
Basically anyone who operates a vehicle with upto 8 passenger seats will have to be licensed by their local authority and anyone operating 9 or more seats will be with VOSA.
Some would say that this is a very good move as it will get rid of the imbalance and create a level playing field for all operators of vehicles up to 8 seats and this may be the reason for doing this. However there is a sting in the tail for operators of vehicles with more than 5 and upto 8 seats in that there are plans to stop these vehicles from being licensed as well. So any of you who at present use people carriers and 8 seat minibuses, watch out because you are the next targets.

So where would that put proprietors & drivers of the now very popular Peugeot E7 & similar 6/7/8 Hackney cabs.

Conversely, if they do bring in a 5 seater maximum passenger limit on Hackneys, then are they trying to get more fares for the Hackney (& PH for that matter) trades?

So, if 6, 7 or 8 passengers want to travel together, they would have to hire two licensed vehicles.


It basically puts them in the [edited by admin]. Also your purpose built TXs are not even safe because according to sources all seats are going to have to be forward facing and have 3 point seatbelts so no rear facing "dickie" seats.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:46 am 
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grandad wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
grandad wrote:
This change in the law is not totaly to do with limos. It is the next step after the repeal of the contract exemption. It will affect far more operators than limo operators. It will effect all the company's operating under PCV rules that use smaller vehicles as a part of their operation. For years big operators have been able to operate a percentage of smaller vehicles without the need for further licensing and in more recent times if an operator has a national license he can actually run ALL small vehicles. So it is these people who are going to be hit hardest by this change.
Basically anyone who operates a vehicle with upto 8 passenger seats will have to be licensed by their local authority and anyone operating 9 or more seats will be with VOSA.
Some would say that this is a very good move as it will get rid of the imbalance and create a level playing field for all operators of vehicles up to 8 seats and this may be the reason for doing this. However there is a sting in the tail for operators of vehicles with more than 5 and upto 8 seats in that there are plans to stop these vehicles from being licensed as well. So any of you who at present use people carriers and 8 seat minibuses, watch out because you are the next targets.

So where would that put proprietors & drivers of the now very popular Peugeot E7 & similar 6/7/8 Hackney cabs.

Conversely, if they do bring in a 5 seater maximum passenger limit on Hackneys, then are they trying to get more fares for the Hackney (& PH for that matter) trades?

So, if 6, 7 or 8 passengers want to travel together, they would have to hire two licensed vehicles.


It basically puts them in the [edited by admin]. Also your purpose built TXs are not even safe because according to sources all seats are going to have to be forward facing and have 3 point seatbelts so no rear facing "dickie" seats.


So no more WAVs then as they carry the wheelchair facing backward :D
GBC was thinking of buying a skoda anyway, but what about brum he has just bought a new cab and is not letting on what type :shock:
Mind you he could always pull this out of retirment
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:29 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So where would that put proprietors & drivers of the now very popular Peugeot E7 & similar 6/7/8 Hackney cabs.

Conversely, if they do bring in a 5 seater maximum passenger limit on Hackneys, then are they trying to get more fares for the Hackney (& PH for that matter) trades?

So, if 6, 7 or 8 passengers want to travel together, they would have to hire two licensed vehicles.


They are already licensed as either PH or HC, they are outside the remit of VOSA.

I didnt see any mention of the number of seats?

CC

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:42 am 
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skippy41 wrote:
So no more WAVs then as they carry the wheelchair facing backward :D

There's about as much chance of no more WAVs as ther is of knitting fog. How else will the wheelchair-bound disabled be able to use taxis?

skippy41 wrote:
. . . but what about brum he has just bought a new cab and is not letting on what type :shock:
Mind you he could always pull this out of retirment
Image

My new Hackney Carriage vehicle is due for delivery on Friday 30th April 2010. When I have it I will post all the details, including photos of the revamped interior.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:44 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
skippy41 wrote:
So no more WAVs then as they carry the wheelchair facing backward :D

There's about as much chance of no more WAVs as ther is of knitting fog. How else will the wheelchair-bound disabled be able to use taxis?


Its just skippy.....it'll now be a law in his mind :lol:

Hackney Carriage licensing is still within the remit of local authorities :D

CC

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:21 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So where would that put proprietors & drivers of the now very popular Peugeot E7 & similar 6/7/8 Hackney cabs.

Conversely, if they do bring in a 5 seater maximum passenger limit on Hackneys, then are they trying to get more fares for the Hackney (& PH for that matter) trades?

So, if 6, 7 or 8 passengers want to travel together, they would have to hire two licensed vehicles.


They are already licensed as either PH or HC, they are outside the remit of VOSA.

I didnt see any mention of the number of seats?

CC


8 and under will be under the LA just as they are now but the seating capacity of vehicles licensed as either private hire or hackney will be reduced and all seats will need to be forward facing. There was no mention of which way a wheel chair will have to be carried. People carriers will be restricted to 5 passengers and depending on certain dimensions saloons will be limited to either 3 or 4 passengers.

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