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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 pm 
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JD wrote:
lol Yorkie I didn't make head nor tail of any of this.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mr Yorkie. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:32 am 
JD wrote:
Yorkie wrote:
now you are rushing and you picked the wrong section!
still its an oh s**t for the Manchester Airport crew aint it?

I cannot find it but there is a part that relates to the powers of different size buses like 20 seats can hail and ride.

your part John bears my matter up, buses do ply for hire, are hackney carriages just cannot do so as a whole!

bucking the argument John bucking the argument.

to you Sussex your first judgement was right, you dont know enough to participate my son.


lol Yorkie I didn't make head nor tail of any of this.

Let me get this straight, are you saying the relevant section I quoted from the 1985 act about buses plying for hire doesn't exist?

With regard to Hail and ride, This type of service has to be registered along with any other service, it will have a start and finishing point and a route.

The main overiding principle of a hail and ride type bus service is that it mainly serves the rural community. Normally it is only hail and ride in those sparcely populated areas and housing estates that dont have bus stops. You are unlikely to find a cab rank stuck out in the middle of the penine range. Having said that, there are these type of services that do operate in areas that are not so sparcely populated but in the main they service towns and villages that have a transport shortage problem. I don't know of any hail and ride service that operates in large cities but maybe you can come up with one?

I don't know where you get this notion that buses can ply for hire, I would like you to tell me the principle and legal definition of a bus plying for hire?

I have already shown you the relevant section in the 1985 act, what is it about that section that you don't understand?

You mentioned hail ride but hail and ride operate on a fixed route and they are not plying for hire, they are picking up passengers according to their licence, that licence does not say they can ply for hire.

Perhaps if you wanted to test the theory that a bus can ply for hire, then you may wish to bring your bus into Manchester, park up on a Taxi rank with a big sign saying for hire and see what happens. In six months time you would no doubt have 3 points on your licence and a fine to boot.

Buses cannot roam the streets or sit on a Taxi rank plying for hire whether that Taxi rank be official or unofficial.

Things may have changed in the last 20 years but not to the extent that buses have the dual purpose of being a bus and a Taxi. Thats why section 12 stipulated that you are either one or the other.

Best wishes

JD.




john.
you are single minded a taxi does not need ranks to ply for hire for gods sake if you are on the street sticking out a hand for bus or taxi that vehicle is plying for hire.

if a private hire vehicle driver walks into a pub and says Ive a taxi outside for anyone who wants one hes plying for hire.

no I am not saying your passage quoted does not exist, only in my book it has different numbers namely section 30

the one about 8 seated vehicles is ironic in the terms of airport caz if you cannot see it sorry.

merely big busses cannot ply for hire as a whole

what John do you think plying for hire means?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:38 am 
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Yorkie wrote:
if a private hire vehicle driver walks into a pub and says Ive a taxi outside for anyone who wants one hes plying for hire.



That's touting!!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:06 am 
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Yorkie wrote:


john.
you are single minded a taxi does not need ranks to ply for hire for gods sake if you are on the street sticking out a hand for bus or taxi that vehicle is plying for hire.


lol Have I ever said that a Taxi can only ply for hire from a designated Taxi rank? Taxi ranks may or may not be appointed by the council but if they are then they are established in order that a Cab can ply for hire there. There are two ways of plying for public hire either by standing at a designated Taxi rank or while in motion on a public highway. Some may say there is only one way of plying for hire and that is by making oneself available to the public at all times when your for hire sign is illuminated.

Now you can quote me correctly, for my definition of a Taxi plying for hire.

With regard to someone sticking out his or her hand to hail a cab I think the distinction should be made as to who is actually plying for hire.

A Taxi with his hire sign illuminated one would assume is plying for hire but that it not always the case. A taxi with his sign turned off one would assume is not plying for hire but that is not always the case either. Just because a person puts his hand up to hail a Taxi it doesn't necessarily mean that the Taxi he is hailing is plying for hire. The only way you will know if a Taxi is plying for hire is if they actually stop or the vehicle is sat on a Taxi rank waiting for custom.

With regard to someone hailing a bus I assume you mean from a designated bus stop. I have myself put my hand out to signal a bus to stop while standing at a bus stop, it is a natural reaction if you think the bus is going to go sailing by. However, I have never put my hand out to hail a bus when I have not been standing at a bus stop, reason being I know that buses cannot ply for hire, the bus driver should know that too.

Therefore the inference that a person would stick his hand out for a bus when not at a bus stop, is misleading.

Quote:
If a private hire vehicle driver walks into a pub and says I've a taxi outside for anyone who wants one, he's plying for hire.


I'm afraid no one can walk into a pub and say "I have a taxi outside for anyone who wants one" Not even a Hackney carriage driver. There are certain laws that apply to Hackney carriage drivers as well as the general public. Hackney carriage drivers cannot tout for business in any way shape or form, it is illegal.

Were you aware of that fact?

Quote:
no I am not saying your passage quoted does not exist, only in my book it has different numbers namely section 30


This is what I said "C.67 section 30-1 1985 act" and this is how its interpreted "Section 30" "sub section 1".

Can you see it now?

I don't know what book you have but no matter what it is, if it relates to buses plying for hire it will no doubt quote the relevant section, which is 30 and the relevant sub section, which is 1 and that is exactly what I stated.

Quote:
the one about 8 seated vehicles is ironic in the terms of airport caz if you cannot see it sorry.


The reference to buses over 8 seats is not one of my making but that of the 1985 act. When it comes to plying for hire, Airportcarz along with every other bus company must abide by the law. The point about Airportcarz is that no one has enough concrete evidence to suggest they are actually plying for hire, if they did they would have been in court long ago.

Quote:
merely big busses cannot ply for hire as a whole

what John do you think plying for hire means?


Plying for hire in reference to Hackney carriages means any vehicle licensed by the appropriate Authority constructed or adapted to seat 8 or less passengers which is provided for immediate hire in any street whether by standing or plying for hire.

In reference to a bus, I'm afraid there is no reference in law that says a bus can ply for hire as a whole. You are going to have to show me legislation where it says a bus can ply for hire? I've already shown you the legislation that says a bus cannot ply for hire, so I think it is now down to you to show me the legislation that says they can.

Perhaps you are confusing bus with Taxi. I assume you think that because a bus picks up passengers at a designated bus stop on a designated route that they are plying for hire. In a roundabout way I suppose that could be seen as being an acceptable definition but plying for hire means making oneself immediately available for hire and I'm afraid buses are not immediately available for hire because they operate under legislation that strictly forbids them being immediately available for hire.

It is also a breach of licence not to run to a registered timetable, it is also a breach of licence to prolong your stay at a designated bus stop. It is also a breach of licence to pick up in-between bus stops, not only is it a breach of licence it is also an offence of plying for hire. So whereas a Taxi can stand indefinitely at a Taxi stand until such time he is hired, a bus does not have that privilege. A bus driver must adhere to the terms of his licence, which restricts him from plying for hire as a whole.

The recent flexibility of some licenses does not mean that a public service vehicle can ply for hire as a whole. Unlike a Taxi, which can. One other thing that should be remembered, there is only one body who can grant a Licence to ply for public hire, they are the local council. The Traffic commissioner can’t grant you a licence to ply for hire.

I can fully see your argument that a bus ply's for hire by virtue of picking up passengers on a designated bus route but I think the wider interpretation of plying for public hire in this instance should be applied.

If you believe that a bus is the same as a Taxi when it comes to plying for public hire, then I am afraid I and many others will no doubt disagree with that analogy.

Best wishes

JD


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 Post subject: Law
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:23 am 
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JD

Are you aware that, apparantely, Airportcarz solicitor stated that their drivers are touting for work including their operators and it is perfectly legal ?
What do you say to that ?
Their drivers have admitted that they have been told by ''mamagement'' that its okay to tout on the ranks in the absence of hackneys.


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 Post subject: Re: Law
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:54 am 
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cheshirebest wrote:
JD

Are you aware that, apparantely, Airportcarz solicitor stated that their drivers are touting for work including their operators and it is perfectly legal ?
What do you say to that ?
Their drivers have admitted that they have been told by ''mamagement'' that its okay to tout on the ranks in the absence of hackneys.


I wasn''t aware of that but let me draw your attention to the 1994 criminal Justice act. I suspect this is what prompted Airportcarz solicitor to make the bold statement that they condone and encourage touting.

167.—(1) Subject to the following provisions, it is an offence, in a public place, to solicit persons to hire vehicles to carry them as passengers.

(2) Subsection (1) above does not imply that the soliciting must refer to any particular vehicle nor is the mere display of a sign on a vehicle that the vehicle is for hire soliciting within that subsection.

(3) No offence is committed under this section where soliciting persons to hire licensed taxis is permitted by a scheme under section 10 of the [1985 c. 67.] Transport Act 1985 (schemes for shared taxis) whether or not supplemented by provision made under section 13 of that Act (modifications of the taxi code).

(4) It is a defence for the accused to show that he was soliciting for passengers for public service vehicles on behalf of the holder of a PSV operator's licence for those vehicles whose authority he had at the time of the alleged offence.

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

(6) In this section—

"Public place" includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access (whether on payment or otherwise); and

"Public service vehicle" and "PSV operator's licence" have the same meaning as in Part II of the [1981 c. 14.] Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.

(7) In section 24(2) of the [1984 c. 60.] Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (arrestable offences), after the paragraph (i) inserted by section 155 of this Act there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
" (j) an offence under section 167 of the [1994 c. 33.] Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (touting for hire car services)."


Let’s take each sub section in turn. First sub section 1 which is the main plank of the legislation.

It is an offence to solicit persons for the specific intention of hiring a vehicle with the intent of carrying those persons as passengers.

Sub section. 2.

Subsection 2 has two definitions the first definition is to state that sub section one refers to no particular type of vehicle that means it includes everything and excludes no one. Except for the provisions as laid down in the subsections below which we will come to. Sub section 2 also defines that any vehicle with a sign for hire does not necessarily mean it is soliciting within the sub section 1 of this act.

However, there is ample legislation and case law that contradicts that second definition.

Sub section 3 refers to section 10 of the 1985 act, which is specifically about Taxi sharing. Taxis Carrying passengers at separate fares but are not subject to the regulations of section 12. Section 12 makes a Taxi a bus for such time the Taxi is carrying passengers at separate fares. A taxi owner also has to apply to the commissioner for a special license in order to carry out the terms laid down in section 12. So in short Sub section 3 appertains to Taxis only, it is saying it is not an offence under this act to solicit custom providing the terms of section 10 of the 1985 act are in place.

Sub section 4 is the nitty gritty. It says.

It is a defence for the accused to show that he was soliciting for passengers for public service vehicles on behalf of the holder of a PSV operator's licence for those vehicles whose authority he had at the time of the alleged offence.

It may appear that the above section is saying that it is a defence for an accused person who touts for custom for a PSV operator providing that person has authority from the PSV licence holder.

However, as far as I am aware there is no legislation that states a PSV operator can tout for custom in a public place or street. There is however ample case law that states otherwise. The most famous being the Omnibus case back in the late 1800’s. We have recently had the Eastbourne judgement, which is a catalyst of that Omnibus case where Lord Hewart stated the following.

“The driver is plying for hire in the street if his vehicle is positioned in circumstances such that the offer of services is “projected to and addressed to” members of the public in the street”.

The natural extension of presenting ones self as being available for hire is actually touting that you are for hire. Having said that the bus in question which is airportcarz is standing at a terminal starting point. It is stationed at a pre determined bus stop which is quite legal so it has the right to exibit itself but the driver in my opinion would be breaching the law if he touted for custom. regardless of what the subsection says about it being a defence in law.

I would take scant regard as to what subsection 4 says because Case Law both old and new states otherwise. The added element is that the Eastbourne case came about in the year 2000, where as this legislation dates back to 1994. And in any case, the section only says it is a defence, it does not necessarily follow that a person will be found not guilty of touting.

Best wishes

JD


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 Post subject: Re: Law
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:16 pm 
cheshirebest wrote:
JD

Are you aware that, apparantely, Airportcarz solicitor stated that their drivers are touting for work including their operators and it is perfectly legal ?
What do you say to that ?
Their drivers have admitted that they have been told by ''mamagement'' that its okay to tout on the ranks in the absence of hackneys.


" they are using private land argumument its interesting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:20 pm 
John.

I must register a failure to aggree,

busses have powere to the number of seats, the hail and ride buses of 20 seats and lass can do to timetable yes, hail and ride again not plying as a whole.

I call that plying for hire.

and they can do it where safe to do so between bus stops.


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