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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:33 pm 
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Yorkie wrote:

of course taxis can get vat free fuel, you just need to be registered and all that goes with it


I should have made myself clear when I stated VAT fuel rebate, I had in mind something similar to the Fuel Duty Rebate, which is now the BSOG

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Airlines are not subsidised, neither are ferries, trains and buses are only where they serve a function approved by the LA


Did I mention ferries? I think we can safely leave ferries off the agenda seeing as how they never featured in the post you quoted from.

Do Airlines not get an aviation fuel duty concession?

Every local bus service, which has 50% of its seating capacity available to the public, is eligible for the Bus Service Operators Grant which, as I have already stated used to be the "fuel duty rebate". It works out that bus companies pay about 12p a litre for diesel.

As I understand it, trains use Red Diesel and they pay in the region of 8p a litre for the privilege. All this is separate from any passenger subsidy, which for the trains this year is over 1 billion pounds out of a total overall rail subsidy of over 3billion. The buses get another 1.1 billion pounds in subsidy.

I haven't got a clue about your reference to LA's. The BSOG is available to any bus company who provides a normal local service which fits the criteria laid down by the DFT. How did you come to the conclusion about LA's in relation to BSOG?

Best wishes

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:33 pm 
Yorkie wrote:
private hire upstart DO NOT CARRY THE PUBLIC

as that would be unlawful


So we open another question ................. who are refered to as "the public".

As far as I'm concerned "the public" refers to anyone not a member of my own family or a personal aquaintance.
With that in mind everyone I pick up in my PH car is a member of the public.

All this really turns on peoples perception that one code is in some way better than the other or has greater stature within the community ......... that is a real shame and anyone who holds this belief is not really worthy of any recognition.

Fuel rebates .......... road tax rebates ........... specialist vehicle subsidies ...... all given to the bus companies, maybe we shouldn't be given the same percentage rebate or subsidy but surely we should get something.

I don't think a march to London would work though, there would be to much arguing in the car park on which way to go .............. we'd never make it to Westminster.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:36 pm 
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Yorkie wrote:
some do some dont, in exactly the same way, chartered for instance dont but scheduled do

Everyone who gets on a plane must pre-book, so your analogy that to serve the public you don't need to pre-book, is flawed.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:02 pm 
So a person is a member of the public until they walk into a taxi office ........ then what do they become ?

A member of the public phones a taxi for straight away ............. the car arrives within 3 mins ................. is this "pre booked"?

Is it not in fact the case that a booking must be placed 24hrs in advance before it is considered in law to be pre booked?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:31 pm 
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Charlie the Paperlad wrote:
Is it not in fact the case that a booking must be placed 24hrs in advance before it is considered in law to be pre booked?

No.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:39 pm 
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both private hire and public hire vehicles are demand responsive

i believe that both are public service in jd's definition

regards

captain cab


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:21 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
both private hire and public hire vehicles are demand responsive

i believe that both are public service in jd's definition

regards

captain cab


The only difference between a Hackney carriage and a Private hire vehicle is that the Hackney carriage can pick up punters off the street. They both in theory perform the same function of carrying passengers from A to B.

Yorkie and Charlie both came to the conclusion that because a Hackney Carriage can ply for public hire on a street as defined by the relevant act and a P/H vehicle cannot, then only the Hackney should be classed as a public service vehicle. On the other hand, it has been implied that any vehicle that transports members of the public should be classed as a public service vehicle. It could be argued that because Private hire vehicles transport members of the public, they too should be included in the public transport definition?

It could also be argued that the word "Private" in Private hire suggests that the vehicle is a private conveyance. However, as I have already stated, the vehicle carries members of the public in the exact same way as a Hackney carriage carries members of the public, excepting for the provision that P/H cannot ply for public hire. So the word Private is normally associated with the way the vehicle is pre booked.

Excepting for the way the hiring is undertaken the execution of both types of Transport is exactly the same.

The problem I have with the definition provided by Yorkie and Charlie is that it may be too narrow a definition and if it was interpreted to the letter could very well exclude other forms of transport that use the pre booking system.

The whole point of my original post was to try and define the status of the Hackney Carriage. By virtue of the logic stated by Charlie and Yorkie the Hackney Carriage is a public service vehicle because of its ability to pick up passengers off the street. Their logic eliminated P/H as being a public service vehicle for the reason that P/H have to be pre booked.

Their definition is fair and one that would probably sit well with a great many people, especially those who drive Cabs. However, I hate to say this but their reasoning may be incompatible with other definitions of public transport that need to be pre booked in the same way as P/H. Do we exclude these forms of transport from the definition of public service?

If P/H is not a public service vehicle as defined by Yorkie and Charlie then does it at any stage during its journey of carrying members of the public ever become a public service vehicle? If it doesn't become a public service vehicle, then it means that at all times it remains a Private hire vehicle.

The question that really needs answering is this.

Are Hackney carriage vehicles public transport and what are the defining factors between them and private hire vehicles that exclude the Private hire vehicles from being public transport?

Yorkie and Charlie have pointed out that the defining factor is by virtue of the Hackneys ability to ply for public hire but there are many public transport mediums that don't ply for public hire, so is their logic possibly flawed?

Best wishes

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:29 am 
John you are all over the place mate.

private hire do not carry members of the public or should not, they need a name and a pick up point and a destination, private transport not public

you quote other forms of transport that take bookings I am sensitive to know you are having a dig but I am not hurt :P

you are a bit wrong of course as booking has other functions planes and ferries to protect against terrorism.

on National express and national coaches its a facility to ensure people have a seat available when they pack thier luggage.

on Ryburn taxibus where the dig was meant its to ensure people in remote areas, who can be up to 10 minutes from home are not missed and a seat is available.

I could go on.

private hire system is based on ensuring they DONT become public transport.

clear thy mind my friend you got your knickers in a twist yeaterday on integrated transport, your definition was laughable you aint grasped that one at all, for that I sentence you to one evening looking round Picadilly Station, there john you will find neatly displayed and organised integrated transport.

for gods sake have another go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:44 am 
Everyone in the world is wrong ............ and "Yorkie" is right ........... well according to him anyway.

Knowing absolutely everything must be such a burden. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:35 pm 
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Yorkie wrote:
John you are all over the place mate.

private hire do not carry members of the public or should not, they need a name and a pick up point and a destination, private transport not public


You have already defined the single reason why a Hackney carriage is public transport. Which as you say is because it can pick up public off the street that’s fair comment. However, perhaps it is not the method of hire that you should be concentrating on but the actual service of carriage. Could it be that you are confusing public hire with public Transport?

The trap you fall into is one of your own making, for the simple reason you can't grasp the wider definition of public Transport. The narrow definition of public transport would most likely just include Bus and Rail, but if you widen that definition it then encompasses a whole raft of vehicles, including Taxis and Private hire vehicles.

If private hire vehicles don't carry members of the public then they are not public transport but what if they do carry members of the public how would you define a vehicle that carries members of the public from A to B?

Under the wider definition the raft of inclusions would no doubt include Scheduled Airliner, Helicopters, Ferries, Passenger ships, Hovercraft, Hydrofoil, Water Taxi, Rickshaw, Auto Rickshaw, Cable car, Chair lift, Limousine, monorail, Dial a ride type vehicles and many, many more.

The court in the 1998 Rickshaw case defined that vehicle as conforming to section 37 of the 1847 act. Which means it can ply for public hire, does that also make it public Transport? Under your narrow definition of the method of hire, it most certainly does.

And by the way, I wasn't having a dig at anyone in my last post. I can't see how you came up with that observation and probably neither can anyone else.

Best wishes

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:22 am 
Charlie the Paperlad wrote:
Everyone in the world is wrong ............ and "Yorkie" is right ........... well according to him anyway.

Knowing absolutely everything must be such a burden. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Charlie
I make a living from this trade, not like those successfull failures that cut and run to sell fast tan.

John and I are debating, dont opick on me because fast tan aint selling, its not likely to whilst the ground is covered in frost.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:37 am 
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Location: Essex, England
Sorry, can't let this debate slip. It's just too pertinent.

JD.

If you go back to the legislation of the 1840s, you will find some interesting debate along the lines you refer to. A phrase that entered the debate, was whether taxis were a "Common Carrier"

One of the definitions of a common carrier, was that as such, a common carrier did not have the right to refuse to carry.

Interesting (albeit totally pointless in context) is that the airlines have never been considered to be common carriers.

The railways lost their status as common carriers with Marples/Beeching/Barbara Castle in the 1960s.

And, although not specifically stated, the buses seemed to have lost common carrier status in 1985.

But what of the Hackney Carriage? As far as I can see, still common carrier innit?

Subsidy, is a different issue.

Subsidy, is a sum of money that Governmental organisations dole out to win votes.

Whatever possessed you to think otherwise?

And, we do get subsidy.

Eg: 1984 £32 billion spent on roads.

£11 billion re-couped through taxation of vehicles and fuel.

Taxis CAN get BSOG if they operate a bus service, and in many places, its up to you what service you operate. You just tell the TAN/VOSA or whatever they call themselves on Tuesdays, that you fancy doing it.

PH, cannot do this. And that, is a significant difference.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:40 am 
Andy7 wrote:
Sorry, can't let this debate slip. It's just too pertinent.

JD.

If you go back to the legislation of the 1840s, you will find some interesting debate along the lines you refer to. A phrase that entered the debate, was whether taxis were a "Common Carrier"

One of the definitions of a common carrier, was that as such, a common carrier did not have the right to refuse to carry.

Interesting (albeit totally pointless in context) is that the airlines have never been considered to be common carriers.

The railways lost their status as common carriers with Marples/Beeching/Barbara Castle in the 1960s.

And, although not specifically stated, the buses seemed to have lost common carrier status in 1985.

But what of the Hackney Carriage? As far as I can see, still common carrier innit?

Subsidy, is a different issue.

Subsidy, is a sum of money that Governmental organisations dole out to win votes.

Whatever possessed you to think otherwise?

And, we do get subsidy.

Eg: 1984 £32 billion spent on roads.

£11 billion re-couped through taxation of vehicles and fuel.

Taxis CAN get BSOG if they operate a bus service, and in many places, its up to you what service you operate. You just tell the TAN/VOSA or whatever they call themselves on Tuesdays, that you fancy doing it.

PH, cannot do this. And that, is a significant difference.


Andy
its great to hear from you again and hope you have a good christmas and get plenty of black sox

well did not know there were any common carriers left at all, but I am one?

dont shout out loud we will be carrying nuclear waste, at this rate.

care Geoff


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:22 pm 
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Location: Essex, England
Geoff,

You have such a superb memory !! Black socks eh. lol.

We have already carried Nuclear cargoes. Used to do that back in the 1980s from our local power station. Not actually in taxis though. We had low loaders too, then. Gave them up when the rates dropped through the floor in 1990.

Hows your good lady Geoff? I hope you too all have a jolly good Christmas up there in Yorkshire. May your tips be Bl**dy great big ones.

Andy

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:19 am 
Andy7 wrote:
Geoff,

You have such a superb memory !! Black socks eh. lol.

We have already carried Nuclear cargoes. Used to do that back in the 1980s from our local power station. Not actually in taxis though. We had low loaders too, then. Gave them up when the rates dropped through the floor in 1990.

Hows your good lady Geoff? I hope you too all have a jolly good Christmas up there in Yorkshire. May your tips be Bl**dy great big ones.

Andy


Andy,
shes recruiting drivers for the new taxibus opperation, will have to swap notes soon?


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