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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:38 pm 
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I found this letter on the Taxi Times site. Although it was an anon letter, I think the envelope had a Coventry post-mark. :?


Black Hackney Cabs - About to be made extinct?

Why is the European Commission about to take the UK to the European Court of Justice over Black Hackney Cabs?

This is a complex question. To understand it you need to understand (i) what the European Commission does (ii) a bit of European Union Law and (iii) history of the Black Hackney Cab saga.

1. The European Commission

(The Commission Itself)

The European Commission is the Executive arm of the European Union Institutions. It helps create European law and it helps to enforce it too.

(The Powers of the European Commission)

The European Commission (or the Commission as it is known) has been given special powers in order to fulfil its duties. One of the powers the European Commission has been given is the power to take a "Member State" (i.e. a European Country like the UK) to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg. This power means the Commission can take a Member State to the European Court of Justice much like the Crown can take an alleged criminal to court in Britain. - The Commission plays the part of the Crown and must prove the Member State has broken European Law. The Member State plays the part of the criminal and must defend itself.

(The way the Commission is divided up)

The Commission is absolutely huge. Tens of thousands of people work for it. Therefore the Commission has been divided up into different parts called Directorate-Generals. Each Directorate-General is in charge of a different area of European Union Law enforcement.

(The Part of the Commission Involved in the Black Cab Debate)

The Directorate-General in charge of the Black Cab Issue is currently Directorate-General Internal-Market (or D-G Internal Market). D-G Internal-Market is in charge of creating a single European market. Its job consists of helping to create and defend European Laws regarding the European Single Market. If D-G Internal Market believes any European Country inside of the European Union (such as the UK) is breaking the European Laws relating to the single market - it may take that country to court. At the moment it is D-G Internal-Market which is contemplating taking legal action against the UK for breaking European Law. It believes the UK is trying to protect the production and use of Black Hackney Cabs - breaking European Law. (See below for details).

2. European Law

(The basics of European Law as concerns the Black Hackney Cab issue)

One of the most important pieces of European Law is called "the First Fundamental Freedom." This part of European Law (articles 28-30 EC Treaty) states that every EU country must allow goods lawfully manufactured in the EU the right of free, unhindered passage in or out of its EU country. In other words, the government of an EU country must not stop or slow down the movement of goods at all. Therefore, if a government decides to pass laws making it obligatory for a vendor to obtain a licence or making it obligatory for a good to pass a test before sale - that government may be breaking EU Law.

(The allegations being thrown at the UK Government)

The Commission has received a number of complaints from individuals in the UK concerning the Black Hackney Cab. These complaints have been sent from individuals residing within the Midlands. The individuals state that the UK government is in breach of articles 28-30 EC Treaty.

(The substance of the allegations)

The allegations concern the licensing laws for taxis in the UK. Local Authorities grant licences to taxis once those taxis have passed a number of safety requirements. These requirements include the need for a taxi to make a U turn in a limited space and the need for a taxi to be of a certain size and shape. The complainants allege these requirements, in practice, describe the shape, size and features of the Black Hackney Cab. They allege that the requirements are unnecessary and are merely an attempt by the Local Authorities (and therefore an attempt by the government) to protect the demand (and therefore production) of Black Hackney Cabs in the UK. In a nutshell, the complainants allege that the licensing laws for taxis in the midlands are biased and should be scrapped.

(The UK's government's possible defence)

The UK government may try to defend the need for the licensing laws. It may argue, for example, that taxis in the certain areas of the UK need to have a small turning circle (and make a U turn) in order to free up traffic congestion. However, this seems to be a weak defence to rely on. The Commission is very likely to ask: Why is it that in the UK you need these requirements and yet no where else in Europe needs them? Areas in Spain and Italy, for example, have just as many "narrow streets" as parts of the UK - and they do not have these taxi requirements.

3. The Black Hackney Cab Saga

(Similar complaints in the past)

Complainants have thrown these allegations at the UK government before - and the allegations did not have the destructive effect commentators thought they would. However, there is much more cause for concern this time around. Last time a UK diplomat (Mr John Mogg) worked inside D-G Internal Market. With his influence inside D-G Internal Market Mr Mogg was able to deflect criticism of the UK taxi licensing laws and discourage the Commission from taking steps which would destroyed a valued piece of British culture and heritage. Now Mr Mogg has retired and the UK has no such diplomat to rely upon.

(So is it worth worrying about?)

If the licensing laws are changed this may not spell the end of the Black Hackney Cab. However, I believe it is very likely that it will. Without the investment of the huge car manufacturers have elsewhere in Europe - it seems likely the Black Hackney Cab will be unable to compete with its competitors and therefore it will die. That is why I have gone to the effort of informing you of what is going on. It is up to you to decide what you wish to do.

(What can be done?)

The only way of saving the Black Hackney Cab - in my mind - is to argue that changing the licensing rules would lead to the destruction of one of the most recognisable symbols of British heritage. We must argue that losing the Black Hackney Cab would be losing what is British about Britain.

Using this argument we must rally the British Public and get the British Press on our side. Then we must use the press to put pressure on our politicians and civil servants in Brussels. Only they can save the Black Hackney Cab from extinction and therefore they must be obliged to fight for its survival.

This is not as difficult as it sounds. The majority of the British public are already highly sceptical of the EU. All that needs to be done is to put out the war cry. The war cry must be that "We cannot allow the EU to destroy what makes us British." I believe the British press and the public will respond to this cry as they have in the past.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:23 am 
its anonomous because LTI staff wrote it

textbook from lti


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:31 am 
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agreed yorkie.

looks like some are going to use the Brits phobia against the euro's once again

Captain cab

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:34 am 
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Alex wrote:
We must argue that losing the Black Hackney Cab would be losing what is British about Britain.

You couldn't make it up. :shock:

If being Bristish is best defined by an overpriced, gas guzzling, back breaking, driver's safety lacking piece of kit, then we really are in the s***. :sad:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:19 pm 
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Alex wrote:
I found this letter on the Taxi Times site. Although it was an anon letter, I think the envelope had a Coventry post-mark. :?


Black Hackney Cabs - About to be made extinct?

Why is the European Commission about to take the UK to the European Court of Justice over Black Hackney Cabs?

This is a complex question. To understand it you need to understand (i) what the European Commission does (ii) a bit of European Union Law and (iii) history of the Black Hackney Cab saga.

1. The European Commission

(The Commission Itself)

The European Commission is the Executive arm of the European Union Institutions. It helps create European law and it helps to enforce it too.

(The Powers of the European Commission)

The European Commission (or the Commission as it is known) has been given special powers in order to fulfil its duties. One of the powers the European Commission has been given is the power to take a "Member State" (i.e. a European Country like the UK) to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg. This power means the Commission can take a Member State to the European Court of Justice much like the Crown can take an alleged criminal to court in Britain. - The Commission plays the part of the Crown and must prove the Member State has broken European Law. The Member State plays the part of the criminal and must defend itself.

(The way the Commission is divided up)

The Commission is absolutely huge. Tens of thousands of people work for it. Therefore the Commission has been divided up into different parts called Directorate-Generals. Each Directorate-General is in charge of a different area of European Union Law enforcement.

(The Part of the Commission Involved in the Black Cab Debate)

The Directorate-General in charge of the Black Cab Issue is currently Directorate-General Internal-Market (or D-G Internal Market). D-G Internal-Market is in charge of creating a single European market. Its job consists of helping to create and defend European Laws regarding the European Single Market. If D-G Internal Market believes any European Country inside of the European Union (such as the UK) is breaking the European Laws relating to the single market - it may take that country to court. At the moment it is D-G Internal-Market which is contemplating taking legal action against the UK for breaking European Law. It believes the UK is trying to protect the production and use of Black Hackney Cabs - breaking European Law. (See below for details).

2. European Law

(The basics of European Law as concerns the Black Hackney Cab issue)

One of the most important pieces of European Law is called "the First Fundamental Freedom." This part of European Law (articles 28-30 EC Treaty) states that every EU country must allow goods lawfully manufactured in the EU the right of free, unhindered passage in or out of its EU country. In other words, the government of an EU country must not stop or slow down the movement of goods at all. Therefore, if a government decides to pass laws making it obligatory for a vendor to obtain a licence or making it obligatory for a good to pass a test before sale - that government may be breaking EU Law.

(The allegations being thrown at the UK Government)

The Commission has received a number of complaints from individuals in the UK concerning the Black Hackney Cab. These complaints have been sent from individuals residing within the Midlands. The individuals state that the UK government is in breach of articles 28-30 EC Treaty.

(The substance of the allegations)

The allegations concern the licensing laws for taxis in the UK. Local Authorities grant licences to taxis once those taxis have passed a number of safety requirements. These requirements include the need for a taxi to make a U turn in a limited space and the need for a taxi to be of a certain size and shape. The complainants allege these requirements, in practice, describe the shape, size and features of the Black Hackney Cab. They allege that the requirements are unnecessary and are merely an attempt by the Local Authorities (and therefore an attempt by the government) to protect the demand (and therefore production) of Black Hackney Cabs in the UK. In a nutshell, the complainants allege that the licensing laws for taxis in the midlands are biased and should be scrapped.

(The UK's government's possible defence)

The UK government may try to defend the need for the licensing laws. It may argue, for example, that taxis in the certain areas of the UK need to have a small turning circle (and make a U turn) in order to free up traffic congestion. However, this seems to be a weak defence to rely on. The Commission is very likely to ask: Why is it that in the UK you need these requirements and yet no where else in Europe needs them? Areas in Spain and Italy, for example, have just as many "narrow streets" as parts of the UK - and they do not have these taxi requirements.

3. The Black Hackney Cab Saga

(Similar complaints in the past)

Complainants have thrown these allegations at the UK government before - and the allegations did not have the destructive effect commentators thought they would. However, there is much more cause for concern this time around. Last time a UK diplomat (Mr John Mogg) worked inside D-G Internal Market. With his influence inside D-G Internal Market Mr Mogg was able to deflect criticism of the UK taxi licensing laws and discourage the Commission from taking steps which would destroyed a valued piece of British culture and heritage. Now Mr Mogg has retired and the UK has no such diplomat to rely upon.

(So is it worth worrying about?)

If the licensing laws are changed this may not spell the end of the Black Hackney Cab. However, I believe it is very likely that it will. Without the investment of the huge car manufacturers have elsewhere in Europe - it seems likely the Black Hackney Cab will be unable to compete with its competitors and therefore it will die. That is why I have gone to the effort of informing you of what is going on. It is up to you to decide what you wish to do.

(What can be done?)

The only way of saving the Black Hackney Cab - in my mind - is to argue that changing the licensing rules would lead to the destruction of one of the most recognisable symbols of British heritage. We must argue that losing the Black Hackney Cab would be losing what is British about Britain.

Using this argument we must rally the British Public and get the British Press on our side. Then we must use the press to put pressure on our politicians and civil servants in Brussels. Only they can save the Black Hackney Cab from extinction and therefore they must be obliged to fight for its survival.

This is not as difficult as it sounds. The majority of the British public are already highly sceptical of the EU. All that needs to be done is to put out the war cry. The war cry must be that "We cannot allow the EU to destroy what makes us British." I believe the British press and the public will respond to this cry as they have in the past.


I can recall reading a similar article to this a while ago but that article at the time wasn't recent. Can we also assume that this article is not recent? If it is recent then it does indeed make interesting reading.

Best wishes

JD


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:18 pm 
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I got it from the latest edition of 'Taxi Times' on our links page.

It doesn't give the date of the edition, but the chap writing the leader column is moaning about having to pay up for receipt printers on their meters. And I believe that has only arisen in the last few months.

Alex

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:43 pm 
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I've certainly read an ariticle very similar to this in the past - maybe a couple of years ago or so.

It may be a slightly different version, but in substance still the same argument.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:42 pm 
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TDO wrote:
I've certainly read an ariticle very similar to this in the past - maybe a couple of years ago or so.

It may be a slightly different version, but in substance still the same argument.


EU movement on this subject appears to be slow. I suppose the people who may know more than most on this subject is the outfit in Scotland who market the E7 vehicles. I'm also surprised there hasn't been more movement in the London scenerio regarding the rejection of the E7. I was under the impression a final report was forthcoming from TFL over the decision to liecense these vehicles?

Anyone know of the current situation? I suspect if London agree to license them then everyone including Manchester will license them.

The main thing about the EU situation if it is still being considered, is that they might say every vehicle including saloons can be licensed as Hackneys, that ruling may take vehicle control out of the hands of a licensing Authority. Interesting thought because I can't imagine saloon vehicles running around london as Hackney carriages as they do in Paris but we do live in a changing world.

Best wishes

JD


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:50 pm 
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Location: Plymouth, i think, i'll just check the A to Z!
JD wrote:
The main thing about the EU situation if it is still being considered, is that they might say every vehicle including saloons can be licensed as Hackneys, that ruling may take vehicle control out of the hands of a licensing Authority. Interesting thought because I can't imagine saloon vehicles running around london as Hackney carriages as they do in Paris but we do live in a changing world.


in fact name any other counrty in the world where they allow just one type or make of vehicle to hold a monopoly on the taxi trade?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:54 pm 
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JD wrote:
Anyone know of the current situation? I suspect if London agree to license them then everyone including Manchester will license them.

I think a decision is due next month.

The mush who use to run LTI (bloke called Bonwick) recently said that he felt the extra 20p a job was a sop for LTI, to cover for the introduction of the E7s into London. Not quite sure what he was on about. Maybe he was saying that the 20p extra would help drivers pay for TX's over the alternatives. But the 20p would still apply to the others as well.

But I think the reason that Ken will allow the E7s etc is a) the polution issue, and b) the fact that he would lose in court over the turning circle.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm 
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steveo wrote:
JD wrote:
The main thing about the EU situation if it is still being considered, is that they might say every vehicle including saloons can be licensed as Hackneys, that ruling may take vehicle control out of the hands of a licensing Authority. Interesting thought because I can't imagine saloon vehicles running around london as Hackney carriages as they do in Paris but we do live in a changing world.


in fact name any other counrty in the world where they allow just one type or make of vehicle to hold a monopoly on the taxi trade?


Well I suspect that is very hard to do and no doubt a court of law would recognise that too. I think Mangonese Bronze have lived a charmed life when it comes to vehicle monopoly in the Major cities.

It wasn't until the Metro cab came along that they had any competitiion at all. My own feeling has always been that any council wishing to protect the status of LTI would fail in a court of Law. I suspect even the most ardent supporters of LTI might concede that point too.

I would love to see the case go court then we would get a ruling on the matter. We all know that councilors in some licensing Authorities think they are God and the only thing that brings these people down to earth is a Judgement from above.

Best wishes

JD


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:21 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
JD wrote:
Anyone know of the current situation? I suspect if London agree to license them then everyone including Manchester will license them.

I think a decision is due next month.

The mush who use to run LTI (bloke called Bonwick) recently said that he felt the extra 20p a job was a sop for LTI, to cover for the introduction of the E7s into London. Not quite sure what he was on about. Maybe he was saying that the 20p extra would help drivers pay for TX's over the alternatives. But the 20p would still apply to the others as well.

But I think the reason that Ken will allow the E7s etc is a) the polution issue, and b) the fact that he would lose in court over the turning circle.


I agree that Red Ken might think he would lose in a court of law but that has never deterred him in the past. It is not his money he is risking and he has an established track record of squandering rate payers money.

Whatever he decides I believe next year the E7 will be a feature of the London Skyline. How London Cabbies greet this new addition remains to be seen but I think implimentation is enevitable.

Best wishes

JD


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:10 pm 
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Hope I'm not stating the obvious, but the reason LTI have a virtual monopoly in many cities is not because they are the preferred supplier, but because only they (and Metrocab) manufacture vehicles meeting the London Conditions of Fitness (CoF) and in particular the tight turning circle specified.

Thus any supplier that could manufacture a vehicle meeting the CoF could enter the market, but the limited market for such vehicles means that it's only economic for effectively one manufacturer to make them, and the effective monopoly is conducive neither to low prices or high quality.

Of course, the CoF are to a large extent a historical legacy, and whether the claims about them deriving from having to accomodate a top hat or a bale of stray are true or taxi rank myth, the turning circle is still one aspect that still has some resonance in modern times.

Thus the CoF in general, and the turning circle in particular, provide a reasonable rationale for LAs that wish to maintain LTI's monopoly, but of course the cynical view is that this is merely the ostensible reason for retaining the CoF, and their retention in fact has more to do with, for example, that the T&G is both influential at LTI's Coventry plant and in many of the LAs that might be affected by allowing 'alternative' vehicles to operate - the strong support for retaining the CoF in the T&G's Cab Trade News is perhaps symptomatic of this. The kind of 'buy British/Europhobic' argument provided in the opening post in this thread perhaps provides another rationale that may influence local policy makers, with the CoF providing a convenient smokescreen for this way of thinking.

As regards the law, it would probably be illegal under local government law if LTI were specified as the only manufacturer of taxis allowed to operate. In EU law this would also be prima facie discriminatory against foreign supplier, as more obviously would specifying only UK manufactured products.

But of course this is not what is specified - it's the CoF - and it just so happens that only LTI manufactures vehicles meeting them.

Therefore the probable questions under EU law is whether the CoF indirectly discriminate against other countries exports or impede the free movement of goods.

Of course, just because it may do this, this does not mean that it may not be done on unreasonable grounds, and thus the big test probably comes down to whether the CoF, and the turning circle in particular, is reasonable.

This debate has already taken place in London, of course, and TfL/PCO seemed to ignore some of the evidence, for example that the tight turning circle encouraged dangerous manoeuvres, thus being detrimental to road safety rather than conducive to it, in which case any ostensible rationale for the CoF would seem pretty thin indeed.

But it seems that all this has yet to be tested in a court of law, and if Allied has its way then it possibly never will.

As for the possibility of saloon cars in London and elsewhere, this seems unlikely - even if the turning cirlcle was abandoned, in seems unlikely that the WAV aspect would be, since it seems improbable that this would be considered unreasonable - indeed, didn't someone on here keep on saying that the impetus for the DDA came from Europe? I'm not sure about that, but it seems unlikely that the EU would strike the WAV criterion down, and also whether anyone would challenge it in the first place - probably not Allied, for a start!

So a more likely outcome is probably what we now see in some of the big cities - a mixture of LTIs, Metros and 'alternative' vehicles.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:36 pm 
that dusty was a load of drivel.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:42 pm 
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And happy new year to you too.

Err, why?


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