Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Tue Apr 28, 2026 3:36 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
Anyone have any idea whats going on here in Carlisle? I can't make head nor tail of it, unless the reference to saloon Taxis really means private hire vehicles.

http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/news/v ... ?id=124222

A TURF war by cabbies over the rank outside Carlisle railway station has prompted an investigation into the way the city's taxi system is run.

City councillors called for a review this week after they denied saloon-style cab drivers permission to take fares from Court Square. This followed protests by saloon cabbies that drivers of Hackney-style taxis were the only ones allowed to work that rank, where most pub and club-goers queue after a night out. They claimed the Hackney cabs alone could not cater for the amount of revellers, rail travellers and other customers seeking a ride.

Carlisle City Councils licensing and regulatory panel, which oversees taxis, also heard claims that the number of cabs was not keeping up with a general growth in clubbers and shoppers. Saloon driver Steven Cupac told the committee: We don't want to just cherry pick on a Friday and Saturday evening. The queues are there every day of the week. People come to Carlisle and they leave the station and there are no taxis.
I believe the public should have a choice of a saloon car, a black car or a bus. It is their choice and we are denying them their choice. Saloon drivers cannot stop at the Court Square rank even if there are no Hackney cabs there and people flag them down. The rule, which dates back 10 years, arose from concerns from disabled organisations. The Hackney cabs are classed as wheelchair accessible The saloon cabbies fought to overturn this rule by submitting an application to the licensing panel to gain a cut of this business. Carlisle Taxi Association (CTA), which mainly represents Hackney drivers, opposed the application. Its representatives responded by saying saloon cars were cheaper to buy than Hackney cabs. Hackney driver Brian McCullough told the committee: They (the saloon drivers) have no concern for the people of Carlisle. It is pure greed. They want to get the cheaper option and then change the rules to suit them.

CTA secretary Wayne Casey said that if the rules were changed, Hackney drivers would just switch to the cheaper cars, which did not have the full facilities for wheelchairs. He also said there was a general problem with a lack of taxis in Carlisle and claimed that flooding the station rank with cabs would lead to fewer cars elsewhere.

Committee chairman Doreen Parsons said councillors had unanimously decided to maintain the current situation. But we recommend that an independent, wide-ranging review into taxi provision in the city is commissioned as soon as possible, she added.


Best wishes

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
courtesy of taxitalk

Common Sense in Carlisle

As you may be aware from my column last month (I can't recall what I called it then), Carlisle's Licensing Panel was to discuss an application by saloon taxi proprietors to use the main Station Taxi Rank in Carlisle. The station rank has been for at least 24 years the sole domain of purpose built and wheelchair accessible taxis, as the rank is busy it has naturally encouraged taxi proprietors to purchase the envisioned more expensive option of the WAV, as opposed to a relatively new saloon car (which admittedly in some cases is more expensive to purchase than some second-hand accessible vehicles). The local association feared that a change in policy, without the necessary consultation, would lead to a lack of investment in the WAV (wheelchair accessible vehicle).

On 11th August 2003, the licensing and regulatory panel agreed to the taxi association's idea of allowing the status quo to remain pending a review that will include all interested parties.

It would appear that we have a temporary cessation of the Carlisle taxi trades own civil war. Although the local paper chooses to call our Civil War a "Turf War" (numbties).

The review should include all the relevant stakeholders, taxi association, disabled groups, the local authority, transport advisory groups etc. Hopefully the review will sort out some of the questions that have arisen during the past 10 years.

Although I was actively involved, I don't see it as a victory for anyone, it is more common sense prevailing, the saloon taxi proprietors play a key role and compliment the service the hackney carriage is able to offer the citizens of Carlisle. At the same time, the WAV is more expensive, even my saloon counterparts may agree, there is a definite role for this vehicle too. The playing field in Carlisle may not be a level one, however expecting people to spend very often three times more money to operate a vehicle does perhaps warrant such an incentive.

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
and from the month before, courtesy of taxitalk

Trouble in Paradise

I try my best to tell everyone that Carlisle has the best taxi system in the world, I do this primarily because I am proud to come from Carlisle and secondly because the system we have in place seems to suit all concerned. Unlike other places we don't have problems with cross border hiring, we don't have illegal plying for hire and the birds always awake residents singing in their own inimitable fashion on beautiful sunny mornings.

This was until recently.

In 1994 the then Labour council decided to de-limit taxi numbers, prior to the council decision we what a 100% purpose built taxi fleet, this was as a result of a council decision back in the late 1970's. The council decision to delimit hackney numbers coincided with their decision to permit saloon cars to be licensed for the first time in a quarter of a century. The only proviso being that the station rank would be for existing licensed hackneys and any newly licensed wheelchair accessible vehicles. Indeed, upon licensing a saloon hackney carriage, you agreed not to ply for hire within 50 meters of the station taxi rank.

This condition of license has been challenged on a couple of occasions, the council have so far been consistent and stuck to their decision that only WAV's should be permitted there, we have now a third attempt by saloon owners to be able to pick up from the station rank when there are queues of passengers.

Quite obviously the trade in Carlisle in now, as it was always very likely to be, is split into two camps, WAV owners and saloon owners, fortunately neither camp is armed.

Saloon owners point to the unfairness of the current system, they are hackneys after all, WAV owners point to the greater expense they have made to be able to use the station rank and the fact that saloon owners upon purchase of their vehicles knew the rules and seemingly now want them changed.

The very fact that some saloon owners are former WAV owners, they seem to be the ones shouting the loudest, and to all intents and purposes have made a 100% change of view, cannot and should not really go without undue notice.

Of course I am biased, I'm a WAV owner, in my view our local authority should be doing its damned best to encourage the purchase of WAV's and through the exorbitant costs of the product, a commitment and investment that is beyond the price of a saloon vehicle.

Most of the problems in Carlisle today span from the poorly conceived idea of delimitation in 1994, the fact that many of the councillors who made the decision in 1994 are now retired from the local political scene does tend to bear testament to the irresponsibility of them and the contempt to which the taxi trade is in general treated.

This is of course why people treat local politicians with a little contempt in general, as they remain aloof from being made accountable for their poor decisions.

The human creature does not have hindsight, but hindsight tells me in Carlisle's case, that if the council in 1994 decided to delimit, but to have only permitted WAV's with a three-year maximum age upon license, to be licensed, we would have had a far more committed profession now in Carlisle. Needless to say, we wouldn't have the trade split in the manner of which it currently seems to be.

The way WAV owners in Carlisle see it, is that they're the ones who have done everything right, purchased the correct vehicles for the job, they see themselves as the victims, with saloon car owners being portrayed as part time wannabee's and snides, who have little investment in the trade outside the weekend periods when they can be bothered to work. To a certain degree this is unfortunately the case, however there are certainly as many professional saloon drivers as WAV.

Delimitation in Carlisle has brought a 500% increase in hackney carriages, however whereas WAV's were already present there has been a 2:1 ratio in favour of saloons as opposed to the WAV. This would have been more if the carrot of the station rank had not been there for WAV's.

The hackney owners in the city whom own saloons, yet don't want to use the station rank, are the unfortunate victims, as the association are very likely to push for the full implementation of the DDA, sooner rather than later.

The bad guys will be the local association, who are merely doing nothing less than offering the view of their members and therefore trying to make a substantive case for the status quo.

The fact of the matter actually is that each time the trade receive a fare increase, it is the whole trade that benefits, it cannot go without saying that Carlisle's fares are actually higher than Newcastle Upon Tyne, Blackpool, Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds over a 3 mile journey, there is little doubt this would have been achieved if it were not through the cooperation between the association and the local authority.

Driver's names being removed from driver's identification badges would have not occurred without the association.
Advertising of vehicles, which was disallowed by many previous regimes, has been permitted through the association and local authority partnership.

Carlisle has now more taxi ranks than ever before, again through the local association.

Yet the association is still vilified by a percentage of the trade whose only commitment to the trade seems to be a weekend period, what have the Romans ever done for us is quite definitely a scenario.

By the time you read this a decision may have been made on the use of the station cab rank by saloons, if it goes the way of the saloon, we will undoubtedly have the death knells of the full time taxi trade in Carlisle, I'll try to keep you informed.

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
courtesy of taxitalk

Common Sense in Carlisle

As you may be aware from my column last month (I can't recall what I called it then), Carlisle's Licensing Panel was to discuss an application by saloon taxi proprietors to use the main Station Taxi Rank in Carlisle.


Nope, we are not aware, well at least i'm not. Are you saying Carlise has both Hackney Saloon type vehicles and Black cabs? and that Carlisle has regulations that discriminate against the Saloon Drivers? Or is it the station that has rules that discriminate against saloon drivers.

I have to wonder if Carlise council have ever read article 13 of the Amsterdam EC treaty, obviously not.

Best wishes

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:48 am 
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.

B. Lucky :twisted:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.


absolutely correct

the matter is under review

regards

Captain cab

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
Quote:
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.


absolutely correct

the matter is under review

regards

Captain cab



Who put the idea forward to exclude these saloon drivers from the Station, was it the council or the WAV drivers?

Best wishes

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
JD,

It was the local authority's idea back in 1995.

When the council delimited, with saloon taxis, the local association stated that members may wish to purchase the envisioned cheaper saloon option.

The LA came up with the idea, it is through a condition of license attached to a hackney saloon.

The LA will review the matter during the next month or so, permitting consultation between all parties, it will probably end up with saloons going on the Station, but with saloons no longer being licensed (at a guess anyway).

regards

Captain cab

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:55 am 
JD wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Quote:
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.


absolutely correct

the matter is under review

regards

Captain cab



Who put the idea forward to exclude these saloon drivers from the Station, was it the council or the WAV drivers?

Best wishes

JD


For gods sake JD read the post.

THE COUNCIL DERESTRICTED.

THEY ACCEPTED APPLICATIONS FOR BOTH WAV AND SALOONS.

IN ORDER THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD CHOSE WAV'S, PROVISION WAS MADE TO ONLY ALLOW WAV'S ACCESS TO THE STATION RANK.

THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAD A CHOICE OF USING ANY VEHICLE TYPE ON EVERY RANK NO WAV'S WOULD HAVE BEEN LICENSED.

Everything has to be blamed on the HC industry with you JD dunnit.

B. Lucky :twisted:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
Gateshead Angel wrote:
JD wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Quote:
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.


absolutely correct

the matter is under review

regards

Captain cab



Who put the idea forward to exclude these saloon drivers from the Station, was it the council or the WAV drivers?

Best wishes

JD


For gods sake JD read the post.

THE COUNCIL DERESTRICTED.

THEY ACCEPTED APPLICATIONS FOR BOTH WAV AND SALOONS.

IN ORDER THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD CHOSE WAV'S, PROVISION WAS MADE TO ONLY ALLOW WAV'S ACCESS TO THE STATION RANK.

THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAD A CHOICE OF USING ANY VEHICLE TYPE ON EVERY RANK NO WAV'S WOULD HAVE BEEN LICENSED.

Everything has to be blamed on the HC industry with you JD dunnit.

B. Lucky :twisted:


So according to you, it was the council who thought this idea up? And according to you the Rank is on station property is it?

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
JD,

It was the local authority's idea back in 1995.

When the council delimited, with saloon taxis, the local association stated that members may wish to purchase the envisioned cheaper saloon option.

The LA came up with the idea, it is through a condition of license attached to a hackney saloon.

The LA will review the matter during the next month or so, permitting consultation between all parties, it will probably end up with saloons going on the Station, but with saloons no longer being licensed (at a guess anyway).

regards

Captain cab


Right, thats better, so the council put a condition of license on saloon vehicles only by way of section 47 of the misc prov act.

So whats the stations take on all this are they bothered about what type of vehicle ranks up there?

Best wishes

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
Gateshead Angel wrote:
JD wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Quote:
It appears that Carlisle Council derestricted numbers of HC vehicles and to encourage people to buy the more expensive WAVs provision was made for them to have rights not afforded to those who chose the cheaper alternative of the saloon.

I can understand that approach, after all who would buy a WAV when they could have a saloon.

Another example of people who deal in theory having absolutely no idea how their theories actually work in practice.


absolutely correct

the matter is under review

regards

Captain cab



Who put the idea forward to exclude these saloon drivers from the Station, was it the council or the WAV drivers?

Best wishes

JD


For gods sake JD read the post.

THE COUNCIL DERESTRICTED.

THEY ACCEPTED APPLICATIONS FOR BOTH WAV AND SALOONS.

IN ORDER THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD CHOSE WAV'S, PROVISION WAS MADE TO ONLY ALLOW WAV'S ACCESS TO THE STATION RANK.

THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAD A CHOICE OF USING ANY VEHICLE TYPE ON EVERY RANK NO WAV'S WOULD HAVE BEEN LICENSED.

Everything has to be blamed on the HC industry with you JD dunnit.

B. Lucky :twisted:


It is plain to see why the good people of Gateshead made you their representive.

Keep watching this space, "you may learn something".

Best wishes

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
JD,

The station taxi rank is on public land, just outside the main rail station in Carlisle.

As I said before, the LA were worried the existing HC owners would purchase saloon cars, so the condition was attached to saloon hackney licenses.

Its been challenged a couple of times, but this time the local TOA asked for it to be reviewed as part of a general look at licensing policy, and in view of Carlisle being on the first phase of LA's.

I suspect that saloons will be on the station rank after the review (should be fun 9 spaces and 200 taxis), however, it may be a pyrric victory as the LA want WAV's, so we may well see saloons no longer being licensed.

hope this clears it up.

Regards

Captain cab

PS Thanks for your concern Mr Angel, tell me about Tesco :wink:

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:16 pm 
captain cab wrote:
PS Thanks for your concern Mr Angel, tell me about Tesco :wink:


You really don't want to know about Tesco :roll: It provides me with a workload all of its own.

A 4 car rank services Tesco with a 4 car feeder just accross the road.

Around 100 taxis work these ranks, with up to 40 cars unable to park in designated spaces at any one time, all of which are under constant threat from the traffic wardens standing with their ticket books and pens poised ready for action.

The simple fact of the matter is that the councils are not legally obliged to provide adequate ranking space for the HC it licenses.

Gateshead is in a chit state, 300 HC and only spaces for less than 25 of them with the majority of spaces being in areas only used or populated at certain times of the day.

But hey, lets dish out more plates, drivers will just have to account for parking tickets when working out how much they need to make in a week to cover their costs.

Last night the waiting time for taxis was on average an hour and a half, thats not the time consumers had to wait for a taxi but the time the taxis waited for a customer.

B. Lucky :twisted:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:51 pm
Posts: 5795
Location: The Internet
Gateshead Angel wrote:
[Gateshead is in a chit state, 300 HC and only spaces for less than 25 of them with the majority of spaces being in areas only used or populated at certain times of the day.

But hey, lets dish out more plates, drivers will just have to account for parking tickets when working out how much they need to make in a week to cover their costs.

Last night the waiting time for taxis was on average an hour and a half, thats not the time consumers had to wait for a taxi but the time the taxis waited for a customer.



So there are now more than three times as many taxis as before de-restriction.

But saloon plates have doubled in price since then?

_________________
Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 707 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group