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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Neither is the demand for taxis in the pre-booked sector considered – in the extreme example of Dundee at one time taxis serviced substantially all of the pre-booked market undertaken by PHVs in other locations, and it seems that even now only the existence of quantity controls on taxis precludes the operation of an almost 100% taxi-only supply-side.


I think the point of the exersize is starting to be eroded.

Local authorities usually call for more taxis and surveys when they think there is a significant unmet demand. This is queues of people waiting long periods at taxi ranks.

So what the document states here is basically its okay if you cant get a vehicle by phone from a PH firm, but scandalous if you cant get a vehicle from a taxi firm by phone.

Hmmm, sounds fair :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:36 pm 
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As a consequence of these various factors, it is arguable that the number of taxis operating in each location is largely arbitrary, and the methodology of the independent surveys mean that only a relatively small amount of ‘unmet demand’ will be manifested, and an incremental amount of new taxi licenses will be granted at most. The demand profile of the market will have adjusted such that much demand that might exist for taxi services in an uncontrolled market will simply not exist, and instead a large PHV sector will exist to serve that market, which will effectively be confined to pre-booking. Likewise, on the supply side a large proportion of the pre-booked work that would be undertaken by taxis in an uncontrolled market will be serviced by PHVs instead. Moreover, as outlined earlier, any ‘new’ supply in the form of additional taxi licenses may not in fact increase supply at all.


Ive already answered this bit above, its a summary. :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:42 pm 
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Therefore, irrespective of whether or not surveys correctly measure unmet demand, what seems clear is that the proportion of taxis operating in an area is largely arbitrary, and depends on the past pattern of local regulation. Thus it is arguable that the unmet demand test and associated surveys merely endorse the status quo and entrench the vested interests of the taxi plate holder group.


I dont want to run through the figures shown, in general figures can show what the reader whats them to show.
:wink:

I find the final sentence amazing :shock:

Your saying independant surveys are not a good thing and are effectively biased towards the trade. One hell of a conclusion wouldnt you say? :wink:

Either people are waiting long periods for taxis or they are not.

It is surely upto the Local authority, survey company, existing and prospective trades, as to how deep the survey will go?

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:47 pm 
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Of course, that is not to say that taxi de-restriction would largely wipe out PHVs in urban areas, since qualitative barriers to taxi operation (such as a purpose built vehicle requirement) will perpetuate a large PH sector. On the other hand, Liverpool and Edinburgh both have taxi sectors significantly larger than the PH trade (despite both having purpose built taxi requirements and quantity controls) resulting in plate values of £25-30,000. Factors here could be past de-restrictions and a lack of business activity in the PH sector allowing a relatively greater penetration of taxis into pre-booked work than is evident in similarly-sized de-restricted cities such as Sheffield.


slightly confused here.

Quote:
Of course, that is not to say that taxi de-restriction would largely wipe out PHVs in urban areas, since qualitative barriers to taxi operation (such as a purpose built vehicle requirement) will perpetuate a large PH sector.


okay, so how do you know that? are you drawing your own conclusion?



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Factors here could be past de-restrictions and a lack of business activity in the PH sector allowing a relatively greater penetration of taxis into pre-booked work than is evident in similarly-sized de-restricted cities such as Sheffield.[/


hehe, good use of the word 'could', I will sleep assured tonight knowing Mr Bush could press the button :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:58 pm 
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But it seems likely that in the three Scottish cities with proportionately large taxi fleets and small PHV sectors there will be a rank and hail market for taxis in areas that simply do not exist in quantity controlled locations. Moreover, the evidence suggests that in those locations the vast majority of taxis also service the pre-booked market, and they are thus effectively hybrids of the taxis and PHVs found in cities with tight quantity controls. Claims that de-restriction means that any PHVs becoming taxis automatically leads to neglect of pre-booked work therefore simply do not hold water – taxis can serve the rank and hail, and pre-booked markets, which is more efficient for both the trade and consumers.


Okay, we now have the use of the word 'likely', you can use the word 'perhaps' & 'maybe' during the future, although the phrases 'I'm guessing here' & @we aint got a clue to be honest', would also fit. :wink:

As for the final part it seems okay for the document to use the above words when its in favour, but not okay to use them if it favours the opposite point of view. :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm 
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The often gross distortion of the market which can result from the deficiencies inherent in the unmet demand test was recognised in a consultant’s report which was cited as evidence in the Wirral case. The report had found no unmet demand requiring the compulsory issuing of new licenses, but:

In this case, submits the defendant, the principal issue faced by the defendant was not 'unmet demand' in the Borough taken as a whole, but the distortion of the market identified in the Maunsell Report. That situation meant that only five so-called "honey pot" ranks out of 32 were fully served, with the result that there was an unduly high proportion of private hire vehicles (in the ratio of 10:1), and illegal plying for hire, as well as other problems.


A point worthy of contemplation

In Carlisle, we have 8 taxi ranks, only two are used by taxis, we are completely delimited, is there an unmet demand?

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:06 pm 
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It is also worth pointing out that cherry-picking by numerically controlled taxis is not confined to the UK and the deficiencies of the unmet demand test. For example, in New York:

Now that the market for for-hire vehicles is so much larger than it was when the Depression-era medallion system was put in place, yellow cabs that once picked up passengers all over the city now do so only in Manhattan south of 96th street.


Back to New York..........

I amde my point earlier about my dislike for this, however, seeing as its good enough for the T&G (and SCATA) it suppose its good enough for us too :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:08 pm 
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Manipulating the unmet demand test


On the basis that the document condiders surveys unfair, I suppose this would naturally follow :wink:

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Another major flaw in the process is that it can be influenced by several factors which are not a part of the legislative test or independent surveys, but which can be manipulated to assist in a finding of no unmet demand or at least reduce the number of additional taxi licenses that have to be issued. While the basic concept of restricting the number of plates appears to serve no one else other than the plate holder group, and the limitations placed on these cartels described above seem to merely entrench the vested interests, the ability to directly manipulate the test presents a further opportunity to maintain the status quo, with little heed paid to the interests of the public or those in the trade outside the plate holder group.


hmmmm :wink:

Cartels..... I feel like JR Ewing now :lol:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:15 pm 
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At the more blatant end of the scale are techniques to skew the results of the surveys investigating any unmet demand evident at taxi ranks. These include:

Ensuring an abnormally high number of taxis are working while the surveys are being undertaken;

Ignoring pre-booked work and concentrating on serving the taxi ranks while they are being surveyed – as mentioned earlier, pre-booked work undertaken by taxis is not considered as regards meeting the unmet demand test;

Using communications equipment to direct taxis to the particular ranks actually being observed by the surveyors.


Is this the same trade that you stated claim to always be on the lookout for new drivers? Are they using magic to find the drivers as well :wink:

Come on, is this a conspiracy theory? The document would be better advised employing the services of Molder & Scully here :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:17 pm 
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More subtle are the use of regulatory variables to achieve the desired result. While this could happen by accident of regulation, the same outcome can be achieved by the deliberate manipulation of the regulatory variables. Edinburgh appears to demonstrate evidence of this taking place, again with little apparent regard to the needs of the public or others in the trade.


Are you sure you dont write SCATA articles?

I dont follow at all.

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:19 pm 
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For example, earlier it was outlined how it was proposed to ‘dumb down’ Edinburgh’s knowledge test to solve the problem of a ‘shortage’ of drivers in the city. As well as enabling plate holders to pack even more drivers into their taxis, this would also clearly help in meeting any unmet demand and thus help prevent other drivers being able to operate their own vehicle. Obviously this would drive down the earnings of existing journeymen, but presumably the needs of plate holders were considered paramount. Again this demonstrates the fallacy of the legislative test insofar as it assumes that increasing the number of taxis increases supply, whereas in general terms the number of drivers is more important.

As a corollary, vociferous objections were made to a new college course for aspiring drivers in Edinburgh, since it was clearly thought by some that this would mean less drivers entering the trade. As mentioned earlier, one of representative group CABforce’s objections to the course was that it would stifle the supply of drivers coming into the trade, who have no choice but to pay excessive rentals to incumbent plate holders. Again the concern is clearly for plate holders and no one else.


Have these points not already been made in too many taxis not enough drivers?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:25 pm 
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Administering quantity controls on taxis


Okay you'll be relieved to know im concluding this for today at the end of this bit. :wink:

Quote:
While the mere concept of limiting taxi numbers will seem somewhat alien to anyone operating in the mainstream business world, the bureaucracy surrounding them merely adds grist to the mill.

For a start, the necessary unmet demand surveys can cost tens of thousands of pounds. This cost is normally borne by the trade, and to the individual license holder the price is one well worth paying – the additional cost is normally less than the standard administrative fee levied by the council, which in turn is negligible as compared to the monopoly profits that can be earned. However, council tax payers can also be made to foot the bill to maintain the plate holders’ cartel and excess profits.


An argumentative point.

If the survey is borne by the trade, what is the problem to anyone?

It is not a monopoly as anyone may purchase a plate :wink:

Excess profits? I dont actually believe there is excess profits...and you use the word cartel again :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:27 pm 
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The whole process is also chronically bureaucratic. While the number of taxis may have been static for many years preceding a survey, it can take in excess of a year after the survey until any additional vehicles deemed required are actually on the streets – more snail’s pace than responsive market. In the meantime, a seemingly endless and time consuming process of lobbying and meetings can take place, involving both the trade and local authority. Costly legal advice is often sought, and litigation can result.


Unfortunately it is a democratic process, even though the document claimed earlier it was not.

Is the document claiming that it is not within the rights of anyone to seek justice for something they see as wrong?

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Meanwhile, many authorities simply do not bother with surveys, and either use some other methodology or merely control taxi numbers as they see fit. It seems unlikely that these authorities could defend these practices if challenged in court. As with some other practices and policies of local authorities in relation to taxi licensing, some authorities clearly maintain positions that would not stand up in court if challenged, but they seem to rely on the fact that for whatever reason those disadvantaged by such policies do not challenge them. One significant factor could be the undemocratic nature of the trade in general, and of restricted numbers in particular. These issues were mentioned earlier, and are clearly not conducive to challenging the vested interests who benefit from restricted numbers.


I understand where the document is coming from, so why does it damn local authorities that carry out surveys and damn those that dont.

possibly hence the saying damned if you do, damned if you dont :wink:

The government announced last year about the Justification of limited numbers, those that dont carry out justification will be in trouble :wink:

Its been addressed by the government.

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Conclusion

Thus it is probably true to say that the number of taxis in any restricted location (and thus to an extent the number of PHVs) is largely arbitrary, and some of the numbers outlined above lend support to that view. The most important factors are probably whether or not the location has always had restricted numbers, the qualitative differences between taxi and PH entry standards and the extent to which the PH sector has managed to encroach into pre-booked work undertaken by taxis. If the relevant licensing authority does takes steps to comply with the legislation and case law then any new licenses issued are likely to make only an incremental difference to the market as a whole.


ahh 'probably', knew it would be in here somewhere :wink:

Quote:
If the relevant licensing authority does takes steps to comply with the legislation and case law then any new licenses issued are likely to make only an incremental difference to the market as a whole.


In the opinion of this document. :wink:

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