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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:18 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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More subtle are the use of regulatory variables to achieve the desired result. While this could happen by accident of regulation, the same outcome can be achieved by the deliberate manipulation of the regulatory variables. Edinburgh appears to demonstrate evidence of this taking place, again with little apparent regard to the needs of the public or others in the trade.


Are you sure you dont write SCATA articles?

I dont follow at all.


By regulatory variables I mean knowlege tests, fare levels etc.

For example, you could use high fares to get rid of demand deliberately, or just implement high fares without such an intent, but it has the same effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:20 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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For example, earlier it was outlined how it was proposed to ‘dumb down’ Edinburgh’s knowledge test to solve the problem of a ‘shortage’ of drivers in the city. As well as enabling plate holders to pack even more drivers into their taxis, this would also clearly help in meeting any unmet demand and thus help prevent other drivers being able to operate their own vehicle. Obviously this would drive down the earnings of existing journeymen, but presumably the needs of plate holders were considered paramount. Again this demonstrates the fallacy of the legislative test insofar as it assumes that increasing the number of taxis increases supply, whereas in general terms the number of drivers is more important.

As a corollary, vociferous objections were made to a new college course for aspiring drivers in Edinburgh, since it was clearly thought by some that this would mean less drivers entering the trade. As mentioned earlier, one of representative group CABforce’s objections to the course was that it would stifle the supply of drivers coming into the trade, who have no choice but to pay excessive rentals to incumbent plate holders. Again the concern is clearly for plate holders and no one else.


Have these points not already been made in too many taxis not enough drivers?


Yes, but this is in relation to manipulating the unmet demand test.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:22 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Administering quantity controls on taxis


Okay you'll be relieved to know im concluding this for today at the end of this bit. :wink:

Quote:
While the mere concept of limiting taxi numbers will seem somewhat alien to anyone operating in the mainstream business world, the bureaucracy surrounding them merely adds grist to the mill.

For a start, the necessary unmet demand surveys can cost tens of thousands of pounds. This cost is normally borne by the trade, and to the individual license holder the price is one well worth paying – the additional cost is normally less than the standard administrative fee levied by the council, which in turn is negligible as compared to the monopoly profits that can be earned. However, council tax payers can also be made to foot the bill to maintain the plate holders’ cartel and excess profits.


An argumentative point.

If the survey is borne by the trade, what is the problem to anyone?

It is not a monopoly as anyone may purchase a plate :wink:

Excess profits? I dont actually believe there is excess profits...and you use the word cartel again :wink:


Plate premiums = excess profits = cartel.

You may like them, but I don't :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:24 am 
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captain cab wrote:
[If the survey is borne by the trade, what is the problem to anyone?



Try reading the other 68 pages :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:28 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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The whole process is also chronically bureaucratic. While the number of taxis may have been static for many years preceding a survey, it can take in excess of a year after the survey until any additional vehicles deemed required are actually on the streets – more snail’s pace than responsive market. In the meantime, a seemingly endless and time consuming process of lobbying and meetings can take place, involving both the trade and local authority. Costly legal advice is often sought, and litigation can result.


Quote:
Unfortunately it is a democratic process, even though the document claimed earlier it was not
.

It's effectively gerrymandered. How could a cartel ever be democratic to anyone outside who suffers? The cartel votes to maintain it, hardly democratic.

Quote:
Is the document claiming that it is not within the rights of anyone to seek justice for something they see as wrong
?


No, just that it's pointless bureacracy from the point of view of all stakeholders, although clearly the bureacracy is good from the point of view of the cartel.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:32 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Meanwhile, many authorities simply do not bother with surveys, and either use some other methodology or merely control taxi numbers as they see fit. It seems unlikely that these authorities could defend these practices if challenged in court. As with some other practices and policies of local authorities in relation to taxi licensing, some authorities clearly maintain positions that would not stand up in court if challenged, but they seem to rely on the fact that for whatever reason those disadvantaged by such policies do not challenge them. One significant factor could be the undemocratic nature of the trade in general, and of restricted numbers in particular. These issues were mentioned earlier, and are clearly not conducive to challenging the vested interests who benefit from restricted numbers.


I understand where the document is coming from, so why does it damn local authorities that carry out surveys and damn those that dont.

possibly hence the saying damned if you do, damned if you dont :wink:

The government announced last year about the Justification of limited numbers, those that dont carry out justification will be in trouble :wink:

Its been addressed by the government.


Hardly, if LAs ignore it.

And of course the Govt did recommend de-limitation, whatever the NTA tries to say.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:34 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Conclusion

Thus it is probably true to say that the number of taxis in any restricted location (and thus to an extent the number of PHVs) is largely arbitrary, and some of the numbers outlined above lend support to that view. The most important factors are probably whether or not the location has always had restricted numbers, the qualitative differences between taxi and PH entry standards and the extent to which the PH sector has managed to encroach into pre-booked work undertaken by taxis. If the relevant licensing authority does takes steps to comply with the legislation and case law then any new licenses issued are likely to make only an incremental difference to the market as a whole.


ahh 'probably', knew it would be in here somewhere :wink:

Quote:
If the relevant licensing authority does takes steps to comply with the legislation and case law then any new licenses issued are likely to make only an incremental difference to the market as a whole.


In the opinion of this document. :wink:


Well you haven't refuted it. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:37 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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The legislation was intended to end the previous ‘unfettered discretion’ of local authorities to restrict taxi numbers, but it has arguably only had a minimal impact on this, with the discretion still largely unfettered.


fetter; restrain

unfetter; unrestrained

I find this statement quite amazing given the events of recent months with the local authorities throughout the country following the advice of the DFT and looking at numbers control policys.


You forgot the qualifier 'largely'.

Anyway, you seem to have also forgotten when the document was written.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:40 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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It's about the powerlessness of plateless drivers. For example, they can be blackballed if they speak out. The point about self-employment is that they have no rights, like cockle pickers, say.


Quote:
okay, so self employed PH drivers have more rights?


No, who claimed that?




Quote:
For example, they can be blackballed if they speak out.


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So the systems at fault for an illegal act?


What illegal act?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:43 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Private hire owners and drivers who might move to the taxi sector with de-restriction also often depend on those with a vested interest in the status quo, such as private hire despatch offices who fear the greater independence and bargaining power that freedom to enter the taxi sector might give to drivers.


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No, it's not the HC trade's fault, and I can't see where you get this claim from?

But if everyone had the gumption, there would be one helluva amount of PH booking offices.


I got it from the top quote

Captain cab


At fault for what?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:45 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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captain cab wrote:
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Taxis and private hire

The fly in the ointment for the taxi plate cartels is that although they have a monopoly over hirings in the rank and hail markets, access to the pre-booked market is unrestricted, thus to the extent that taxis service that market the cartel is undermined by the encroachment of private hire.


I disagree with the use of the word cartel and use of the word monopoly, as previously stated hackneys are licensed by the LA to carry out the tasks as stated, they are not responsible for numbers of licenses.

If there is an encroachment of private hire then surely it is the job of enforcement to cease the problem.


Have you ever heard the phrase 'statutory monopoly' for example?

As regards your latter point, the encroachement point was clearly relating to the pre-booked market, not illegal plying by PH.


I completely disagree with the word used 'cartel'

when we had limited numbers, we certainly did not operate a cartel.


So you objected to restricted numbers, or did you agree with the LA?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:59 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Private hire owners and drivers who might move to the taxi sector with de-restriction also often depend on those with a vested interest in the status quo, such as private hire despatch offices who fear the greater independence and bargaining power that freedom to enter the taxi sector might give to drivers.


Quote:
No, it's not the HC trade's fault, and I can't see where you get this claim from?

But if everyone had the gumption, there would be one helluva amount of PH booking offices.


I got it from the top quote

Captain cab


What I meant was that it could be detrimental to them if they spoke out, because the depend on PH ops for work.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:27 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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As M&R says, say you are in an area were PH don't have a knowledge, thus all new plates will be issued to HC drivers. If a survey says issue 50 plates, those plates will go to 50 lads already working in the trade. So how does that meet the new demand?


well presuming that these drivers will no longer have the ability of driving two cars at the same time, the perhaps there old vehicles (& trainers) will have to recruit more drivers.

Captain cab


But they can't, because they HC owners will in all probability be short of drivers as it is, as in Brighton and Liverpool etc.

So the 'shortage' just gets greater :D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:18 am 
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Just a quick few words.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my points, I was at times being a little tongue in cheek, and you did notice.

regards

Captain cab

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:42 pm 
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HA HA, I'll do the same with some of your stuff one day cap :wink:

By the way, some of my answers were a bit brief given the deluge of posts :shock: and my lack of time, but if any of my comments were unclear then they can be expanded.

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