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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 pm 
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The pi$$ takes get a bit boring after the tenth page of the thread Captain.


I look forward to them bits too :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:38 pm 
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For example, you could use high fares to get rid of demand deliberately, or just implement high fares without such an intent, but it has the same effect.


Since when have HC's been able to put their fares up without LA approval?


Who claimed they did?


you did there

Captain cab

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:38 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
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captain cab wrote:
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Administering quantity controls on taxis


Okay you'll be relieved to know im concluding this for today at the end of this bit.

Quote:
While the mere concept of limiting taxi numbers will seem somewhat alien to anyone operating in the mainstream business world, the bureaucracy surrounding them merely adds grist to the mill.

For a start, the necessary unmet demand surveys can cost tens of thousands of pounds. This cost is normally borne by the trade, and to the individual license holder the price is one well worth paying – the additional cost is normally less than the standard administrative fee levied by the council, which in turn is negligible as compared to the monopoly profits that can be earned. However, council tax payers can also be made to foot the bill to maintain the plate holders’ cartel and excess profits.


An argumentative point.

If the survey is borne by the trade, what is the problem to anyone?

It is not a monopoly as anyone may purchase a plate

Excess profits? I dont actually believe there is excess profits...and you use the word cartel again


Plate premiums = excess profits = cartel.

You may like them, but I don't


I didnt say I did agree, but I dont agree with this calculation (Plate premiums = excess profits = cartel. )


You may have a point there Captain, it would be better expressed the other way round (ie cartel = excess profits = premiums).

But I'm sure the meaning was obvious anyway :D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:40 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
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For example, you could use high fares to get rid of demand deliberately, or just implement high fares without such an intent, but it has the same effect.


Since when have HC's been able to put their fares up without LA approval?


Who claimed they did?


you did there

Captain cab


What, I claimed fares were put up without LA approval? Rubbish.

If you read the example in the document, you'll see that the Edinburgh fare rise proposal came from the LA.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:56 pm 
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Gateshead Angel wrote:
Lets please get a grip on the real reality, Nidge was banned cause he got to close to the truth, all of the evidence is there if you'd just take the time to read what has been said.

He wouldn't know the truth if it poked him in the eye. I didn't think anyone believed him, but there is always one. :shock:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:58 pm 
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City set to drive up taxi fares by 15%

By MICHAEL HOWIE


TAXI fares in Edinburgh are set to rise by up to 15 per cent.

The pockets of people travelling in the evenings, at night and at weekends will be the hardest hit if the proposed increases go ahead.

The new fares are aimed at enticing more taxi drivers to work at night, when there is often a dearth of available cabs on the street.

The city council’s executive will meet next week to consider a range of options drawn up by experts at Napier University.

Councillors will be asked whether to back a proposal favoured by industry representatives which would see night-time fares rise by up to 15 per cent.

The proposal will be put out to public consultation before a final decision is taken.

Taxi industry leaders today said it was vital drivers received the rise they deserved.

The proposal favoured by the trade will see a rise in daytime fares - applying between 6am and 6pm weekdays and known in the industry as tariff 1 - of between 7.7 and ten per cent.

Tariff 2 fares - between 6pm and 6am during the week, and all day at weekends - would rise by between 13.3 and 15 per cent.

A passenger wishing to travel from Waverley Bridge to Edinburgh Airport at night, for example, would pay £14.46, compared with £12.60 at present - a 14.76 per cent increase. A taxi trip to the Shore from Waverley Bridge would cost £4.92, up from £4.50.

The council agreed with the taxi trade in 1999 that there would be an annual review of fares. But no change was made to fares last year, leaving taxi drivers angry at what effectively amounted to a pay freeze.

Napier University’s Transport Research Institute (TRI) has since been commissioned to come up with proposals for a new taxi fare structure.

In his report to councillors, Jim Inch, acting director of corporate services, said the report "suggested modifying the structure of taxi fares in order to achieve greater use of taxis and to encourage individuals to take up taxi-driving opportunities".

He says one option favoured by industry representatives on the licensing committee’s Taxi Liaison Group would reduce a taxi driver’s working week from 45.2 hours to 38, if they were content to continue to earn "a basic wage".

Outlining the advantages of the preferred option, the report says: "Preferred tariff 1 produces a small but important increase in the tariff levels in the city of Edinburgh.

"The increase appears roughly in line with changes in the costs of living on a broad brush, and are felt in this respect to be relatively uncontroversial."

The report adds that the higher night-time unit charge "is likely to increase supply at key times".

However, it accepted the changes would fail to fully satisfy taxi drivers’ demands for wages to be brought in line with other cities in the UK.

Edinburgh currently has around 3500 taxi drivers operating more than 1200 cabs.

Jim Muldoon, chairman of the Scottish Taxi Federation, admitted the proposed new fares may initially attract a negative response from the public.

But the Edinburgh taxi driver added: "I do think this is quite a fair rise considering the amount of time we have waited for it and the fact that costs have increased over the last couple of years.

"We have discussed this and think this is the best option. It gives a little extra to those working the night shift and might encourage more drivers to work at that time."

Council transport leader Andrew Burns said: "The demand for taxis through the day is quite constant but the problem arises late at night and in the early morning when the supply of taxis falls.

"That’s why the Taxi Liaison Group’s report looks at ways of potentially increasing the supply of taxis through the measures they have put forward."

The fares increase seems likely to add to passenger discontent.

The bitter battle between official airport cabs and black cabs, over access to the city’s airport, has left many passengers disillusioned.


The way I read the story is that the LA and the trade want to encourage more taxis to work, it says nothing about getting rid of demand.[/quote]

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:13 pm 
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In his report to councillors, Jim Inch, acting director of corporate services, said the report "suggested modifying the structure of taxi fares in order to achieve greater use of taxis and to encourage individuals to take up taxi-driving opportunities".

So why are they trying to encourage this then, to increase unmet demand? :?

As M&R said, it may not be entirely intended, but even if the council can't work out the most basic principle in economics (ie that increasing prices encourages supply and stifles demand) in this case they had the economics department of Napier University involved, so it must be assumed that at least they know what they are doing.

Also, the surveyors often recommend fare increases as a way of alleviating unmet demand, so it's hardly a novel concept.

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 pm 
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Ahhh I see.

So if we have a fare increase in a delimited area, thats fine.

But if you have a fare increase in a limited area your intent on retaining numbers control with the full agreement of the local authority.

okay I see that

Captain cab

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:21 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Ahhh I see.

So if we have a fare increase in a delimited area, thats fine.

But if you have a fare increase in a limited area your intent on retaining numbers control with the full agreement of the local authority.

okay I see that

Captain cab


Well you clearly don't see the supply and demand principle.

In an unrestricted area fare rises will just drag more people into the trade and stifle demand, so in the end the trade can't win.

In Edinburgh, new entrants have no option but to drive one of the existing fleet, so it lines their pockets, means less unmet demand and thus less plates next time round.

So basically in the latter case it's all for the benefit of existing plate holders, and no one else matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:23 pm 
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Another good example was the Brighton meeting in January, where the T&G reported:

Geoffrey Theobald (Conservative Party) stated that he uses taxis and he makes a point of speaking to drivers who consistently tell him that the additional £1.00 charge at weekends has driven down the demand for taxis during those times. He concluded by saying that he agreed with Linda Hyde and he supported the retention of the limitation policy.

So basically the public pay to keep plates static and no doubt inflate premiums even further.

But no doubt you could JUSTIFY that Cap :wink:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:24 pm 
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The council agreed with the taxi trade in 1999 that there would be an annual review of fares. But no change was made to fares last year, leaving taxi drivers angry at what effectively amounted to a pay freeze.


these people never had a fare increase for 3 years, they were well overdue one, wouldnt you say?

perhaps it would be better to agree to disagree?

captain cab

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:27 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
So if we have a fare increase in a delimited area, thats fine.

But if you have a fare increase in a limited area your intent on retaining numbers control with the full agreement of the local authority.

The point is that some councils increase fares to encourage drivers to work un-sociable hours, at the same time as refusing to increase the number of taxi plates.

Thus it's Joe Public who's paying through the nose when they needn't.

In de-limited areas increasing fares to meet demand is really the only way it can be met, other than to decrease driver or vehicle standards. :sad:

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:38 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
So if we have a fare increase in a delimited area, thats fine.

But if you have a fare increase in a limited area your intent on retaining numbers control with the full agreement of the local authority.

The point is that some councils increase fares to encourage drivers to work un-sociable hours, at the same time as refusing to increase the number of taxi plates.

Thus it's Joe Public who's paying through the nose when they needn't.

In de-limited areas increasing fares to meet demand is really the only way it can be met, other than to decrease driver or vehicle standards.


Im sorry, I dont see it that way.

Captain cab

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captain cab
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:42 pm 
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Quote:
Another good example was the Brighton meeting in January, where the T&G reported:

Geoffrey Theobald (Conservative Party) stated that he uses taxis and he makes a point of speaking to drivers who consistently tell him that the additional £1.00 charge at weekends has driven down the demand for taxis during those times. He concluded by saying that he agreed with Linda Hyde and he supported the retention of the limitation policy.

So basically the public pay to keep plates static and no doubt inflate premiums even further.

But no doubt you could JUSTIFY that Cap


Do you like the way someone from a delimited area has to Justify the policies of a limited area? hehe :wink:

I know very little about Brighton, although I did visit once.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:03 am 
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The council agreed with the taxi trade in 1999 that there would be an annual review of fares. But no change was made to fares last year, leaving taxi drivers angry at what effectively amounted to a pay freeze.


Quote:
these people never had a fare increase for 3 years, they were well overdue one, wouldnt you say?


Well it doesn't say that, it just says that fares weren't reviewed LAST year.

But I believe they had a rise in plate premiums, so presumably that wasn't overdue? Do rises in plate premiums compensate for no rises in fares in your opinion? And what do the drivers (ie the majority) get out of it?

Quote:
perhaps it would be better to agree to disagree?


I wouldn't expect anything else :wink:

Incidentally, the report says that the fare rises will attract more drivers, yet at the same time give them a pay rise. Slight contradiction there!

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