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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:05 am 
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Location: edinburgh
craigmillar has always been a dripping roast for parasites
they mis-allocate it by creating jobs that are not needed,and the community ends up with feck all but a parcel of unqualified idiots who have cemented themselves and there friends and families into jobs.

and why does residing in an area entitle you to work there.

if i move to the airport im entitled to work there :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:19 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
The plate “value” is built on inequality, discrimination and exploitation. I know drivers who lost their drive simply for applying for a licence and others that are too frightened to speak out or can't get a drive because of their political opinion on restriction. I really don't think you would have a problem showing the effect restriction has on individual's rights. And that's before you get to the qualified driver, having the right of unfettered access to the tools of his trade, to earn a living, argument.

As for the costs involved the problem is you need to fund a HR, lawyer to fight your case, but there's nothing stopping you representing yourself. If you have the initial argument, and can demonstrate the effect the council's decision has on you as an individual or group.

Trust me Dusty, I've spoken to a top lawyer, and it all comes down to cash or finding a way to represent yourself and getting the argument into the legal process. The last thing he said was, Lawyers will fight anything, if you have money. Oh and btw, when he looked at the case, he said it had merits, he then told me to find the money or spend the next god only knows how many years finding a way to fight it. :-|

I think the RC, meeting is the way into the process. If you have a proper legal submission before the council that can be carried into court on appeal. :-|


Certainly a very good argument on paper.

My preferred approach when I first got interested in the subject was the (low profile) political route rather than the legal avenue. However, I effectively gave up on that a few years ago anyway.

Still not entirely sure about the substantive human rights case though, because there has to be discrimination based on some specified ground - inequality and exploitation per se aren't the basis for a legal challenge, or everyone everywhere would be at it. Of course, that's not to say that an argument couldn't be made, and given some of the flaccid cases that you often hear about being put forward even in the higher courts then it wouldn't need a top silk to come up with something plausible.

Of course, the big problem with this kind of thing is getting it all off the ground. Is there still an active grouping in Edinburgh pursuing a legal and/or political campaign, or has it all fragmented and fizzled out?


The discrimination argument is simply to prove that an individual or group, is disadvantaged by a prejudicial practice. This would be the council's application process and policy of restriction denying a qualified self- employed driver unfettered access to the tools of his trade.

Inequality speaks for itself, working practices that reduce a self-employed driver's status to that of casual labour.

Exploitation, how about paying hiked rentals or inflated artificial plate premiums to prop up vested interests in a restricted market trading in council property.

I don't think you would have many problems proving any of the above to the satisfaction of a Judge.


As with everything concerning the taxi trade it ebbs and flows subject to the economic and political conditions of the time. I really don't know what's happening that concerns challenging the council. :-|


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:02 am 
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Skull wrote:
The discrimination argument is simply to prove that an individual or group, is disadvantaged by a prejudicial practice. This would be the council's application process and policy of restriction denying a qualified self- employed driver unfettered access to the tools of his trade.

Inequality speaks for itself, working practices that reduce a self-employed driver's status to that of casual labour.

Exploitation, how about paying hiked rentals or inflated artificial plate premiums to prop up vested interests in a restricted market trading in council property.

I don't think you would have many problems proving any of the above to the satisfaction of a Judge.


You're certainly correct in that there's discrimination and inequality in the political sense, but I don't think the legal case is quite so clear cut.

Quote:
Discrimination occurs when you are treated less favourably than another person in a similar situation and this treatment cannot be objectively and reasonably justified.

It is important to understand that the Human Rights Act does not protect you from discrimination in all areas of your life. Instead it protects you from discrimination in the enjoyment of those human rights protected by the European Convention of Human Rights. This reflects the core idea that all of us, no matter who we are, enjoy the same human rights and should have equal access to them.

There are other laws that protect you from discrimination more generally.

The protection against discrimination in the Human Rights Act is not free-standing. In other words, in order to rely on this right, you need to show that your ability to enjoy one or more of the other rights in the Human Rights Act has been affected by the discriminatory treatment. However, you do not need to prove that this other human right has actually been breached.

The Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on a wide range of grounds including ‘sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status’.

The case law relating to this right has shown that the term ‘other status’ includes, among other things, sexual orientation, illegitimacy, marital status, trade union membership, transsexualism and imprisonment. It can also be used to challenge discrimination on the basis of age or disability.


Problem is that drivers aren't being discriminated against on the grounds of sex, race, colour etc. I mean, the council isn't saying that you can't have a plate because you're black or a women.

Quote:
The courts have also established that the human rights protection from discrimination includes indirect discrimination. Indirect discrimination occurs when a rule or policy that appears to apply to everyone equally actually works to the disadvantage of some groups. For example a requirement that all employees be over six feet tall may be indirect discrimination where it is not strictly required for the job, since women and people from some race groups will be disadvantaged.


So perhaps it could be argued that restricted taxi numbers discriminates indirectly on the grounds of race or age, because, for example, new - and thus generally younger - drivers can't get a plate on the terms that older drivers did.

I'm certainly no lawyer, and I've no doubt that a case of some kind could be constructed, but I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you make it sound Gary.


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:11 am 
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Read my post again Ali... It already answers a couple of your questions. If you've got a beef about any the folk I mentioned, ( and I only mentioned them to make a particular point to Skull, I happen to know them and they know me, big deal), then take it up wae' them.


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:30 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
The discrimination argument is simply to prove that an individual or group, is disadvantaged by a prejudicial practice. This would be the council's application process and policy of restriction denying a qualified self- employed driver unfettered access to the tools of his trade.

Inequality speaks for itself, working practices that reduce a self-employed driver's status to that of casual labour.

Exploitation, how about paying hiked rentals or inflated artificial plate premiums to prop up vested interests in a restricted market trading in council property.

I don't think you would have many problems proving any of the above to the satisfaction of a Judge.


You're certainly correct in that there's discrimination and inequality in the political sense, but I don't think the legal case is quite so clear cut.

Quote:
Discrimination occurs when you are treated less favourably than another person in a similar situation and this treatment cannot be objectively and reasonably justified.

It is important to understand that the Human Rights Act does not protect you from discrimination in all areas of your life. Instead it protects you from discrimination in the enjoyment of those human rights protected by the European Convention of Human Rights. This reflects the core idea that all of us, no matter who we are, enjoy the same human rights and should have equal access to them.

There are other laws that protect you from discrimination more generally.

The protection against discrimination in the Human Rights Act is not free-standing. In other words, in order to rely on this right, you need to show that your ability to enjoy one or more of the other rights in the Human Rights Act has been affected by the discriminatory treatment. However, you do not need to prove that this other human right has actually been breached.

The Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on a wide range of grounds including ‘sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status’.

The case law relating to this right has shown that the term ‘other status’ includes, among other things, sexual orientation, illegitimacy, marital status, trade union membership, transsexualism and imprisonment. It can also be used to challenge discrimination on the basis of age or disability.


Problem is that drivers aren't being discriminated against on the grounds of sex, race, colour etc. I mean, the council isn't saying that you can't have a plate because you're black or a women.

Quote:
The courts have also established that the human rights protection from discrimination includes indirect discrimination. Indirect discrimination occurs when a rule or policy that appears to apply to everyone equally actually works to the disadvantage of some groups. For example a requirement that all employees be over six feet tall may be indirect discrimination where it is not strictly required for the job, since women and people from some race groups will be disadvantaged.


So perhaps it could be argued that restricted taxi numbers discriminates indirectly on the grounds of race or age, because, for example, new - and thus generally younger - drivers can't get a plate on the terms that older drivers did.

I'm certainly no lawyer, and I've no doubt that a case of some kind could be constructed, but I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you make it sound Gary.


I've read all this before and the key to making the argument is, "or other status." If I can prove I am being discriminated against because of a prejudicial council policy. It doesn't stop being discrimination because it fails to fall into a certain category. It simply means the argument hasn't been made. Discrimination is discrimination after all. I don't think it would be Human Rights to create exceptions, you either have Human Rights, or you don't, and that applies to everyone, equally. :-|

I should add that public authorities are charged with protecting Human Right. :-|


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:41 am 
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So what's the 'other status', precisely?


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:47 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
So what's the 'other status', precisely?


I think it's an opening for an argument to be made when someone feels their rights are being abused. :-| It's for a Human Rights Judge to decide if the argument is valid. :-| It's new ground in a lot of cases. :-|


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:54 am 
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Yes, you're sounding a bit vague now Gary :)

An alternative way of looking at is that it's basically a lottery - it doesn't depend on anyone's status, it's just the luck of the draw.

The EuroMillions is hugely discriminatory and creates gross inequalities, but it doesn't discriminate on the grounds of anyone's status.

It's a, er, lottery :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:01 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, you're sounding a bit vague now Gary :)

An alternative way of looking at is that it's basically a lottery - it doesn't depend on anyone's status, it's just the luck of the draw.

The EuroMillions is hugely discriminatory and creates gross inequalities, but it doesn't discriminate on the grounds of anyone's status.

It's an, er, lottery :lol:


I think "or other status" is deliberately vague for a reason, discrimination isn't easily defined or categorised when it comes to a persons rights. :-|


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:08 am 
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Skull wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, you're sounding a bit vague now Gary :)

An alternative way of looking at is that it's basically a lottery - it doesn't depend on anyone's status, it's just the luck of the draw.

The EuroMillions is hugely discriminatory and creates gross inequalities, but it doesn't discriminate on the grounds of anyone's status.

It's an, er, lottery :lol:


I think "or other status" is deliberately vague for a reason, discrimination isn't easily defined or categorised when it comes to a persons rights. :-|


Well I suppose you could try the "council treats you like your thick as sh it and treats you like you're something they wiped off their shoe" style of argument. :-k


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:10 am 
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It couldn't hurt, it definitely has some merit. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:10 am 
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Skull wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, you're sounding a bit vague now Gary :)

An alternative way of looking at is that it's basically a lottery - it doesn't depend on anyone's status, it's just the luck of the draw.

The EuroMillions is hugely discriminatory and creates gross inequalities, but it doesn't discriminate on the grounds of anyone's status.

It's an, er, lottery :lol:


I think "or other status" is deliberately vague for a reason, discrimination isn't easily defined or categorised when it comes to a persons rights. :-|



I sense some, "Eye Twitching," and "Laughing," Am I right ?.


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:13 am 
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John, you do realise that some people move beyond how they were dragged up. No one is stopping you thinking for yourself. The only one holding you back is you. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:18 am 
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Skull wrote:
John, you do realise that some people move beyond how they were dragged up. No one is stopping you thinking for yourself. The only one holding you back is you. :roll:



Gary, I'm begging you, please,pleeeezz tell us if one o' your legs is daen' the,"John Travolta," right now... please


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 Post subject: Re: budgets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:23 am 
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Fairplay wrote:
Skull wrote:
John, you do realise that some people move beyond how they were dragged up. No one is stopping you thinking for yourself. The only one holding you back is you. :roll:



Gary, I'm begging you, please,pleeeezz tell us if one o' your legs is daen' the,"John Travolta," right now... please


:? :roll:


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