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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
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Would an independent Scotland be financially sound?
Newsnet Main Articles
By John Jappy

As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called "books" for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place.

When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax. From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate. I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.

Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there. In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown's 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off. This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar. Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures. Watching the debate, I saw Dewar's eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.

After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong. There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on "printing mistakes". However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual "Human Development Index". For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. Norway wisely created an "oil fund" in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.

Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).

Analysis

It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income. Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.

With the oil boom, Scotland's economy was transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.

On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland's oil revenue had been underwriting the UK's failure to balance its books for decades. There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars. This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland's top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million. They have continued to rise, although I don't have more recent statistics.

On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.

Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland's First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes. Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.


Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.ph ... ally-sound



What a load of guff......... #-o

Now the Salmondites are having to fall back on the Views of some retired London (England) Civil servant in the vague hope of dragging up something that may remotely help them put across their lost cause..the desperation of it is laughable :lol: :lol: :lol:

So whos views would you reccommend :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:36 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
bloodnock wrote:

Now the Salmondites are having to fall back on the Views of some retired London (England) Civil servant in the vague hope of dragging up something that may remotely help them put across their lost cause..the desperation of it is laughable :lol: :lol: :lol:


The only desperation is coming from you.
Maybe you can get westminster to shift the border a mile up the road, so your Jerusalem can continue to be in England's green and pleasant land :wink:

Never mind, David Cameron is coming here next week to save us all from ourselves :lol: :lol: :lol:



No desperation here mate....Its never gonna happen, your going to remain in the UK for a long long time yet :badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:43 pm 
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It's all borlocks. If Scotland could stand on its own, and I have no doubts whatsoever that it could, fact is that under Herr Salmond's plans we would all be touching our forelocks to the Franco/german bureaucracy through Brussels.

I wonder what the boys freezing their borlocks of and shechting themselves in lancaster bombers would have thought of that.

Both these nations have been trying to build empires within Europe for centuries. Salmond seems to want to help them. So, what does he get out of it.

As for comparisons with Norway, as I understand it, Norway is soveriegnly independent. We wouldn't be.

Now, if Salmond and his creepy yellow shirts like the intellectually challenged Dougie want to offer us true independence, and a plan for an egalitarian model society without the monarchy and all the other institutions of contropl and privilege, then bring it on. Let's debate that.

At least that may prove more attractive than being an outpost of the FrancoGerman axis.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Stationtone wrote:
Would an independent Scotland be financially sound?
Newsnet Main Articles
By John Jappy

As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called "books" for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place.

When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax. From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate. I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.

Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there. In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown's 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off. This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar. Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures. Watching the debate, I saw Dewar's eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.

After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong. There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on "printing mistakes". However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual "Human Development Index". For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. Norway wisely created an "oil fund" in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.

Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).

Analysis

It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income. Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.

With the oil boom, Scotland's economy was transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.

On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland's oil revenue had been underwriting the UK's failure to balance its books for decades. There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars. This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland's top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million. They have continued to rise, although I don't have more recent statistics.

On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.

Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland's First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes. Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.


Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.ph ... ally-sound



What a load of guff......... #-o

Now the Salmondites are having to fall back on the Views of some retired London (England) Civil servant in the vague hope of dragging up something that may remotely help them put across their lost cause..the desperation of it is laughable :lol: :lol: :lol:

So whos views would you reccommend :roll: :roll: :roll:


I reccommend that people form their own views on Yes or No....and that they are not being brainwashed by either the Nationalist nor the Unionist camp. It would be far better that they can work out the Pros and Cons for themselves.

Then Eck and his Acolytes would be stuffed as the reality of what Seperation actually means to us, the ordinary people of Scotland and how much its likely to hurt in the long term, they'll soon see theres little point in cutting off their nose to spite their face.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:54 pm 
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Come to think of it, when we entered the Common Market there was cross party support and opposition. Opinion did not simply fall down party boundaries.

This could be explained by commercial interests represented by the Tories seeing huge potential for profit, and the labour movement, through Labour, seeing huge potential for workers power through international solidarity in the face of increasingly aggressive capitalism.

Now 40 years down the track, it is clear that there has been little benefit for working classes. GThe game has been rigged in favour business and capitalist profits. Workers have seen their rights reduced and assault by regulation designed to increase control over them.

While I welcomed the potential offered to workers at the outset, and supported entry, I'm no longer convinced convinced that there is any real social benefit in remaining within the European Union. If the Scottish Nasty Party get's its way, we will be welded to whatever form of the EU it chooses to metamorphose into. We will be shackled to its ideologies and control system.

I would have preferred if the independence issue was separate from the U membership issue, that to be decided by Sc ots AFTER any successful independence plebiscite. Then an independent decision could have been taken by us, without pressure to conform to politicians desire.

But Salmond's basket contains only one option. Breakaway from the UK union AND enslavement to the EU model.

I see trouble brewing.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Come to think of it, when we entered the Common Market there was cross party support and opposition. Opinion did not simply fall down party boundaries.

Commercial interests mainly represented by the Tories seeing huge potential for profit, and the labour movement, mainly through the Labour Party, seeing huge potential for workers power through international solidarity in the face of increasingly aggressive capitalism.

Now 40 years down the track, it is clear that there has been little benefit for working classes. The game has been rigged in favour business and capitalist profits. Workers have seen their rights reduced and assault by regulations designed to increase control over them.

While I welcomed the potential offered to workers at the outset, and supported entry, I'm no longer convinced that there's any real social benefit in remaining within the European Union. If the Scottish Nasty Party get's its way, we will be welded to whatever form of the EU it chooses to metamorphose into. We will have no control over this and be shackled to its ideologies and control system.

I would have preferred if the independence issue was separate from the EU membership issue, to be decided by Scots AFTER any successful independence plebiscite. Then an independent decision could have been taken by us, without pressure to conform to politicians desire.

But Salmond's basket contains only one option. Breakaway from the UK union AND enslavement to the EU model.

I see trouble brewing.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:59 pm 
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In an Independent Scotland Politics will evolve, we could see a split within the SNP as far as Centre right and Centre left, This will attract MSPS from the Current Scottish Tories too the far left Lib Dems, Politics in Scotland could become like America with Republican and Democrats at the forefront.

Im a Republican as are some within the SNP :D I favour the Norwegian route totally independent of Europe, Lets get independence first and then be a part of shaping Poiltics in an independent Scotland. We are significant within 5 million but massivley insignificant within the current UK population of 60 million.

The SNP are the only party that truely listens to our ides and views, VOTE YES :D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
Come to think of it, when we entered the Common Market there was cross party support and opposition. Opinion did not simply fall down party boundaries.

This could be explained by commercial interests represented by the Tories seeing huge potential for profit, and the labour movement, through Labour, seeing huge potential for workers power through international solidarity in the face of increasingly aggressive capitalism.

Now 40 years down the track, it is clear that there has been little benefit for working classes. GThe game has been rigged in favour business and capitalist profits. Workers have seen their rights reduced and assault by regulation designed to increase control over them.

While I welcomed the potential offered to workers at the outset, and supported entry, I'm no longer convinced convinced that there is any real social benefit in remaining within the European Union. If the Scottish Nasty Party get's its way, we will be welded to whatever form of the EU it chooses to metamorphose into. We will be shackled to its ideologies and control system.

I would have preferred if the independence issue was separate from the U membership issue, that to be decided by Sc ots AFTER any successful independence plebiscite. Then an independent decision could have been taken by us, without pressure to conform to politicians desire.

But Salmond's basket contains only one option. Breakaway from the UK union AND enslavement to the EU model.

I see trouble brewing.


If Salmond categorically stated that Scotland would be Given an a Vote on Going into the EU or Staying out of the EU then he would more than likely get a great big Yes vote for Indepenence. But he's been suckered by the EU and seems to think the Suns Shines out of its Brussels A***hole.

Im sure a lot of Anti EU types would rather go for a truly independant Scotland than a Scotland thats only jumped out of one union frying pan into another even bigger Union frying pan.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:26 pm 
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Alex Salmond has already stated that there would be a referendum on joining the EU currency so surely there would also be a referendum on joining the EU as a whole, the feeling for a national referendum on our EU membership is massive and the UK government fear that outcome, Alex Salmond won't just disregard that feeling meaning the vote on independence is just a vote on independence and not a vote to also join the EU .

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:51 am 
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Private Reggie wrote:
Alex Salmond has already stated that there would be a referendum on joining the EU currency so surely there would also be a referendum on joining the EU as a whole, the feeling for a national referendum on our EU membership is massive and the UK government fear that outcome, Alex Salmond won't just disregard that feeling meaning the vote on independence is just a vote on independence and not a vote to also join the EU .


Alex Salmond may seek on Joining the Euro but he wont give us Scots a vote on whether or not we want to be in or out of the EU, Thats because he can then hoodwink us all into believing that a Vote for Independance would act as a mandate for the SNP to take Scotland straight back into the EU.

He allegedly offers us Freedom outside of the UK whilst he knows full well that he is going to haul us back into a bigger and much more horrible federal europe in which we will have even less say than we do now as part of the UK.

Anyone thinking otherwise would be a complete fool, Salmond realises that we Cant go it alone outwith the UK so he has to hitch us up to the EU so he can extend his begging bowl to those he knows would sell their souls to the devil in order to have another small nation shackelled for ever to an unbreakable EU yoke.

Once the EU gets you in its death grip all pretence of Independance, liberty and freedom are gone forever in the name of federalism as Scotland may find found out at its peril if its not careful.... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:00 am 
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Here's a wee video from Europarl.TV, of Alyn Smith and a UKIP MEP discussing how and if member states should leave the EU. Not a bad wee discussion.

http://www.europarltv.europa.eu/en/play ... e8009e061e


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:44 am 
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Private Reggie wrote:
Alex Salmond has already stated that there would be a referendum on joining the EU currency so surely there would also be a referendum on joining the EU as a whole, the feeling for a national referendum on our EU membership is massive and the UK government fear that outcome, Alex Salmond won't just disregard that feeling meaning the vote on independence is just a vote on independence and not a vote to also join the EU .


Let me see. We bin the UK but could vote to retain its pound, with London setting our interest rates and money supply. Aye right.

Leave the UK and we will be sprackling to join the Euro. We will have no alternative. Salmond knows this, even if you don't Dougie.

And Dougie, you say "surely" there would be a referendum on joining the EU as a whole. You truly are deranged Dougie. The reason you don't know for sure whether your SNP masters would hold such a vote is clearly because they won't. You give Salmond his head, and he'll frogmarch us into the bosom of Europe. Both he and you Dougie, are stupid and dangerous. Him for believing we would do it in the first place, and you for once again swallowing the party line.

I like you Dougie. because I know that we don't have to argue the case. We just have to see your inane meanderings to know that the whole pile is a crock. So keep going. It's great to watch you floundering.

Once again :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 am 
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I like you jasbar......you tend to pull your punches :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:12 am 
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Jasbar wrote:
We will have no alternative.


Like Sweden?

Sweden does not currently use the euro as its currency and has no plans to replace the krona in the near future. Sweden is obliged under the Treaty of Maastricht to adopt the euro at some point in the future.[1] Under the 1994 Treaty of Accession Sweden has to join the eurozone once it meets the necessary conditions.[2] Sweden maintains being part of ERM II is a required criterion and joining ERM II is voluntary,[3][4] giving Sweden a de facto opt out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

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