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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Herr Salmond has no intention of delivering independence within Europe.

Leaving Westminster and giving full control to Brussels is pointless, he knows this. It's nowhere near the nationalist dream his party was founded on. Yet, the Party had to adopt the independence within Europe policy because they knew that no sane Scot would ever opt to go it truly alone in a globalising world.

Salmond has a problem. He's duty bound to pursue this policy, because he's expected to. But he's realised a status for his party to lord it over us in this small pond that is Scotland. And he knows he can extract even more power from Westminster to massage his ego, and those of his Scottish Nasty Party cronies.

With the other mainstream parties in meltdown, Lib Dems because they are untrustworthy, Labour because they've shown how to make a mess of it by denying their political roots, and the Tories because they are in the midst of the biggest ideology driven financial mess our nation has ever witnessed, Salmond knows his job is safe for the foreseeable future and he wants more power. All control freaks ever want is more power. He's no different.

But the independence policy, fundamental to his party, is now a noose around his neck. How does he keep his own powerbase, without having to give it away to Europe? How can he jettison the policy and still remain credible.

Simple. A referendum with a question about alleged independence, which he knows will be rejected. Policy binned and he can always say he gave us the option and we refused it. The Nasties can hold their head up, while claiming it's not dead, they'll get another chance in 30 years, conveniently consigned to the dustbin of history.

And a question about devo max, which he also knows that Scots will agree to.

Cameron knows what his game is, he just doesn't want to give anything away without specific negotiation. A yes vote for devo max would fetter him at those negotiations.

Salmond is heading to where he enhances his powers, builds his own party as the party of choice for Scots and will have control over us forever.

Salmond's aim is to build an elected dictatorship in Scotland which he controls.

Politically, he's a very dangerous man.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Independence no more.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:10 pm 
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You still lack a credible argument for the union.

Likening Salmond and the SNP to Adolf Hitler and the **** party?
Is that really the best you can do?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:20 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
You still lack a credible argument for the union.

Likening Salmond and the SNP to Adolf Hitler and the **** party?
Is that really the best you can do?


I don't have to justify the Union. I'm not seeking to change it. You want the change. tell us all why we should. And tell us clearly, and specifically so we all klnow what we're voting for.

And if you don't believe salmond's fascist tendencies, then look no further than Edinburgh's council and watch fascism in action.

And isn't it interesting you bodyswerved the argument. I presume you agree with it then =D> =D>

Anyone else out there who would trust Salmond as far as they could throwm?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:

I don't have to justify the Union. I'm not seeking to change it. You want the change. tell us all why we should. And tell us clearly, and specifically so we all klnow what we're voting for.

You spout off that we should stay with this corrupt union, yet you have no need to justify it? :lol:
Quote:
And if you don't believe salmond's fascist tendencies, then look no further than Edinburgh's council and watch fascism in action.

I don't believe Salmond has ever been a member of Edinburgh Council.
But at least you betray your personal bias here.

It's Fascist Salmond and the nasty party because.....they won't give you a plate. :shock:
Grow up Jim. Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram.

Quote:
And isn't it interesting you bodyswerved the argument. I presume you agree with it then =D> =D>


You haven't made any argument to bodyswerve. Just a series of slurs and innuendos that even the Tory press wouldn't print.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Saturday, 18 February 2012
Rabid Mad-Dogs Attack Alex Salmond & Scottish Independence Drive


The joint mad-dog attack with negativity everything about independence by the Tory-Lib-Lab pact is proving as effective a campaign as a turkey vote for Christmas. Despite what Westminster United tries to portray, the Scottish people are intelligent sensible-thinking people, once they see the true figures, see the real choice before them, and gauge what future is best for their families and the country they live and work in, a yes vote is a certainty, in my mind. I'm sure over the months ahead, as more and more positive information regarding independence comes to light, and more anti-myths are dispelled, the people of Scotland will vote with their hearts, vote with their brains, and just as importantly, vote for their country.

As an example of the mad-dog attack, The democratically elected First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, has been compared to, Slobodan Milosevic, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, Kim Jong Il, Caligula, Ceausescu, Genghis Khan, and Nero, to mention a few. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad, and in case you find this situation as ridiculous as I do, click here, for more details. I suppose, if nothing else, Alex Salmond must have a good sense of humour, and in reality, he may not be Saint Alex, but his party, the SNP, with him at the top have done some pretty remarkable stuff since the advent of devolution. I was asked by a good friend the other day, "What have the SNP done for us?" Once I put the 'Life of Brian' line of "What have the Romans ever done for us?" out of my mind, I rhymed off a few lines. Then I thought of a few more, then I began to think, I should make a list there are so many things the SNP has done for us.

I'm not going to make a numbered list, the point of this rambling of mine is not to promote the SNP (blatantly, at least), you're as capable as me as doing a quick internet search, or just click some of the links below to discover some details. The main point of this rant, if you like, is the viciousness and negativity in which the unionist parties at Westminster have gotten together, held hands, and despite their own, so called, political differences, rounded on the First Minister of Scotland like a pack of blood thirsty hounds ripping a small furry creature to bits. First, I wonder at the vitriol of it, then I wonder at the reason for it, and then I begin to understand it. They are running scared, and backed into a corner, they have decided to join forces and attack, for they see attack, not sensible debate, as the best form of defence.

Apart from verbal assaults on the First Minister of Scotland, we hear nonsense about post-independence border controls and patrols, passports required to move from Scotland to England and back. We hear how Scotland will never survive on it's own, we'll be a poverty ridden third world country harking back to the good old days of the UK, and that is probably after the raft of military invasions we have to endure - from whom, I haven't a clue, because we will be no longer be armed to the teeth with fast jets, trident nukes, and warehouses full of cruise missiles. Then there's the economic propaganda, few reserves of oil left, we'll scare away foreign investment, get kicked out the EU, be refused to use the Sterling currency, I could go on and on, but already I feel ridiculous even bringing some of this stuff up, never mind the fact that it is so called intelligent people and politicians that are spouting this fear-mongering vomit in the first place.
"Ever since the independence referendum was announced, Scotland has witnessed an outpouring of bile, negativity, scare mongering and bitterness from the anti-independence parties." Paul T Kavanagh has written an excellent and far more in-depth and detailed list of scare stories, myths and misinformation here, a must read for every sensible Scot, and anyone with an interest in Scotland.

So, why are they doing it? Why libel, slander, and malign a democratically elected First Minister, and why debase the Scottish independence referendum debate with such tales of woe and fear and uncertainty? Why try to infer the fact that the people of Scotland are incapable of running and organising their own affairs in a sensible and intelligent way? Well, Meja couldn't state it more clearly than me when she sings, "It's All About the Money". I'm in ignorance as to why the Swedish songstress wrote this song, but the lyrics are, to me, quite apt, in regards to the attacks emanating from Westminster. In the halls of the UK seat of Government, they forget all about austerity, that word only applies to the plebs outside London. Where the money is, they have dictionaries that don't include words like, austerity, equality, fairness, democracy. Someone though, in that Empire class, has borrowed a book that has those words, and passed it around, and the panic is setting in, for a long established way of life may be coming to an end rather more sharply, and shortly, than they may have imagined, if they did ever contemplate it ever ending at all. Once Scotland goes, the English shires will want some of this new democracy for themselves, and that will mean London having to cut up the pie a little more, and offer to the north and west and the south-west of England more than the few crumbs from the table they are only ever given. Without Scotland to blame as the subsidy-junkies over the border bleeding them all dry, the English outside of London will see where the wealth of England is really going, to the elite, to the greedy, to the corrupt. Meanwhile, back up in Scotland, in a few years time, we'll hopefully be happy celebrating Independence Day, perhaps in a brief moment, wondering how the equality debate is progressing down south.

I could post pages of links, but stopped after the few below, they should be enough for anyone seeking a little more information about Scotland and some of the issues regarding the independence debate. If you just want to hear something nice for a change, go straight to the Meja link (I have no idea whatsoever if Meja has an opinion of Scottish independence, or this article, I just like the song, and the lyrics!).

http://steviemach.blogspot.com/2012/02/ ... lmond.html


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:15 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Saturday, 18 February 2012
Rabid Mad-Dogs Attack Alex Salmond & Scottish Independence Drive


The joint mad-dog attack with negativity everything about independence by the Tory-Lib-Lab pact is proving as effective a campaign as a turkey vote for Christmas. Despite what Westminster United tries to portray, the Scottish people are intelligent sensible-thinking people, once they see the true figures, see the real choice before them, and gauge what future is best for their families and the country they live and work in, a yes vote is a certainty, in my mind. I'm sure over the months ahead, as more and more positive information regarding independence comes to light, and more anti-myths are dispelled, the people of Scotland will vote with their hearts, vote with their brains, and just as importantly, vote for their country.

As an example of the mad-dog attack, The democratically elected First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, has been compared to, Slobodan Milosevic, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, Kim Jong Il, Caligula, Ceausescu, Genghis Khan, and Nero, to mention a few. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad, and in case you find this situation as ridiculous as I do, click here, for more details. I suppose, if nothing else, Alex Salmond must have a good sense of humour, and in reality, he may not be Saint Alex, but his party, the SNP, with him at the top have done some pretty remarkable stuff since the advent of devolution. I was asked by a good friend the other day, "What have the SNP done for us?" Once I put the 'Life of Brian' line of "What have the Romans ever done for us?" out of my mind, I rhymed off a few lines. Then I thought of a few more, then I began to think, I should make a list there are so many things the SNP has done for us.

I'm not going to make a numbered list, the point of this rambling of mine is not to promote the SNP (blatantly, at least), you're as capable as me as doing a quick internet search, or just click some of the links below to discover some details. The main point of this rant, if you like, is the viciousness and negativity in which the unionist parties at Westminster have gotten together, held hands, and despite their own, so called, political differences, rounded on the First Minister of Scotland like a pack of blood thirsty hounds ripping a small furry creature to bits. First, I wonder at the vitriol of it, then I wonder at the reason for it, and then I begin to understand it. They are running scared, and backed into a corner, they have decided to join forces and attack, for they see attack, not sensible debate, as the best form of defence.

Apart from verbal assaults on the First Minister of Scotland, we hear nonsense about post-independence border controls and patrols, passports required to move from Scotland to England and back. We hear how Scotland will never survive on it's own, we'll be a poverty ridden third world country harking back to the good old days of the UK, and that is probably after the raft of military invasions we have to endure - from whom, I haven't a clue, because we will be no longer be armed to the teeth with fast jets, trident nukes, and warehouses full of cruise missiles. Then there's the economic propaganda, few reserves of oil left, we'll scare away foreign investment, get kicked out the EU, be refused to use the Sterling currency, I could go on and on, but already I feel ridiculous even bringing some of this stuff up, never mind the fact that it is so called intelligent people and politicians that are spouting this fear-mongering vomit in the first place.
"Ever since the independence referendum was announced, Scotland has witnessed an outpouring of bile, negativity, scare mongering and bitterness from the anti-independence parties." Paul T Kavanagh has written an excellent and far more in-depth and detailed list of scare stories, myths and misinformation here, a must read for every sensible Scot, and anyone with an interest in Scotland.

So, why are they doing it? Why libel, slander, and malign a democratically elected First Minister, and why debase the Scottish independence referendum debate with such tales of woe and fear and uncertainty? Why try to infer the fact that the people of Scotland are incapable of running and organising their own affairs in a sensible and intelligent way? Well, Meja couldn't state it more clearly than me when she sings, "It's All About the Money". I'm in ignorance as to why the Swedish songstress wrote this song, but the lyrics are, to me, quite apt, in regards to the attacks emanating from Westminster. In the halls of the UK seat of Government, they forget all about austerity, that word only applies to the plebs outside London. Where the money is, they have dictionaries that don't include words like, austerity, equality, fairness, democracy. Someone though, in that Empire class, has borrowed a book that has those words, and passed it around, and the panic is setting in, for a long established way of life may be coming to an end rather more sharply, and shortly, than they may have imagined, if they did ever contemplate it ever ending at all. Once Scotland goes, the English shires will want some of this new democracy for themselves, and that will mean London having to cut up the pie a little more, and offer to the north and west and the south-west of England more than the few crumbs from the table they are only ever given. Without Scotland to blame as the subsidy-junkies over the border bleeding them all dry, the English outside of London will see where the wealth of England is really going, to the elite, to the greedy, to the corrupt. Meanwhile, back up in Scotland, in a few years time, we'll hopefully be happy celebrating Independence Day, perhaps in a brief moment, wondering how the equality debate is progressing down south.

I could post pages of links, but stopped after the few below, they should be enough for anyone seeking a little more information about Scotland and some of the issues regarding the independence debate. If you just want to hear something nice for a change, go straight to the Meja link (I have no idea whatsoever if Meja has an opinion of Scottish independence, or this article, I just like the song, and the lyrics!).

http://steviemach.blogspot.com/2012/02/ ... lmond.html



Yes, but no answers. Defence, Monetary policy and control, the Euro or the pound, taxation, political independence from Brussels, share of national debt - just to name a few. This is just a rehash of all the bland mumblings we've had for yonks. No facts, just a tug at heart strings.

yes scots will see through this. And if you think like this blogger that it's a done deal, you're gonna be mistaken.

Independence is last century's game. The world has moved on.

BTW I've been a Scot for nearly 60 years. I have no truck with Westminster, nor it's puppy dogs. But I firmly believe that if Scotland should ever be independent, truly independent, then it should not be under anything to do with what Salmond is proposing.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:29 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Jasbar wrote:

I don't have to justify the Union. I'm not seeking to change it. You want the change. tell us all why we should. And tell us clearly, and specifically so we all klnow what we're voting for.

You spout off that we should stay with this corrupt union, yet you have no need to justify it? :lol:

What part of this don't you understand. You want the debate. It's down to you to convince US. And you're failing, because you haven't been spoonfed your leaders arguments. I've no doubt that when he tells you what to say you'll wax lyrical.

Quote:
And if you don't believe salmond's fascist tendencies, then look no further than Edinburgh's council and watch fascism in action.

I don't believe Salmond has ever been a member of Edinburgh Council.
But at least you betray your personal bias here.

It's Fascist Salmond and the nasty party because.....they won't give you a plate. :shock:
Grow up Jim. Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram.

Yes, very good. yes, that is part of it. In salmond's supposed free market free Scoltland he denies workers unfettered access to the tools of their trade, and allows councils to fetter the market. That he allows this makes him a liar. So, what is it? Is Salmonds "independent" Scotland, going to operate under a free market? Or is he still going to control the market? And if your version of "independence came with a cost of lifting the cap on licences, will you support it?

Quote:
And isn't it interesting you bodyswerved the argument. I presume you agree with it then =D> =D>


You haven't made any argument to bodyswerve. Just a series of slurs and innuendos that even the Tory press wouldn't print.


The last bastion of the political ostrich. read it again and answer it. Read it slowly and absorb it. Then tell me where I've got it wrong :lol:


The Nasty's have no real substantiable argument to lead us down the road to their promised land. They are hoping that they will be able to use the time to whip up nationalist fervour. We're going to be subjected to a raft of aporioning blame on Westminster to mjustify the split. Salmond will try to get Scots to vote with their heart rather than their head.

Yet the premise is simple. All votes depend on the effect on voters pockets. And there's no way Salmond will be able to persuade anyone that his rampage into an uncertain future is not gonna risk the cash we already don't have in our pocket.

I'll make a prediction now. I reckon that the yes vote will be 28%, well short of that required. And I'll put the turnout at 78%

Independence no more.

BTW This little ruse of Salmond's is gonna put real independence on the back burner for ever.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:47 am 
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gusmac wrote:
You still lack a credible argument for the union.

Likening Salmond and the SNP to Adolf Hitler and the **** party?
Is that really the best you can do?


Why should we Unionists need a credible argument in order to maintain things as they are, its as clear as the nose on your face the benefits of staying part of the UK.

Its up to the confused minority of seperatists to put in place a credible argument for their beleifs that a go it alone Scotland is a better alternative, sadly though they cant argue their cause because its so shot full of contradictions and unknowns that even their own High heid yins change their minds in a pathetic bid to fool the voters, they are so desperate they even want 16 year olds and foreign nationals who reside in Scotland to be allowed to vote in the hope that they might scrape through on that,

They have put a referendum 2 years down the line that could be done within 6 months...but oh no, theyre just to feart to have it so soon as they know they would lose it and so they have decided to bury their heads in the sand for two more years in a pathetic bid to postpone their own demise and then try to maintain a sense of their own self importance for a wee while longer.

The SNP seem to think all badness originates from south of the border and yet the fail to see their own shortfalls.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:19 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
gusmac wrote:
You still lack a credible argument for the union.

Likening Salmond and the SNP to Adolf Hitler and the **** party?
Is that really the best you can do?


Why should we Unionists need a credible argument in order to maintain things as they are, its as clear as the nose on your face the benefits of staying part of the UK.

Its up to the confused minority of seperatists to put in place a credible argument for their beleifs that a go it alone Scotland is a better alternative, sadly though they cant argue their cause because its so shot full of contradictions and unknowns that even their own High heid yins change their minds in a pathetic bid to fool the voters, they are so desperate they even want 16 year olds and foreign nationals who reside in Scotland to be allowed to vote in the hope that they might scrape through on that,

They have put a referendum 2 years down the line that could be done within 6 months...but oh no, theyre just to feart to have it so soon as they know they would lose it and so they have decided to bury their heads in the sand for two more years in a pathetic bid to postpone their own demise and then try to maintain a sense of their own self importance for a wee while longer.

The SNP seem to think all badness originates from south of the border and yet the fail to see their own shortfalls.

Can't argue with this. Perhaps I could add that, while I perhaps used to think 16 year olds should vote, now I most definitely don't.

I've no doubt that there are some who have given the matter some thought, and whose views deserve respect, whichever side of the debate they come down on. I was politically wary enough at that age to make a reasoned choice. Well, I thought I was at the time.

Now I know I wasn't. Views at that age are based on idealism, not experience. And Scotland's future, and that of the UK, shouldn't be decided on an immature whim.

But Salmond wants to tap into hearts, not minds. He wants to appeal to emotions, not reason.

As I said, he's a clever man. And dangerous.



But


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:28 pm 
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BTW When I refer to Herr salmond, it should be understood that I don't single him out per se. I refer to all members of the Nasty Party who simply swallow the Party line.

My own experience is not with Salmond personally, but with his oberleutnant Colin Keir. I've looked this man in the eye and seen fascism down to the core of his soul.

The sad thing is that the weakness of other Scottish political parties allowed those like him to control the Parliament. And our reward is a raft of restrictions, bans, and control freakery.

In an independent Scotland, with these people running the show, they'll drive us into the cold war dark ages.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:33 pm 
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BTW 2 As if we need a reminder of the quality of this Nasty party in government, and which shows how a Scotland would be governed by this crowd in an elected dictatorship, let's all just ask the question

'How is Megrahi doing?'

:roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
BTW 2 As if we need a reminder of the quality of this Nasty party in government, and which shows how a Scotland would be governed by this crowd in an elected dictatorship, let's all just ask the question

'How is Megrahi doing?'

:roll:


Not too well by all accounts.
Judge for yourself
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Quote:
And if your version of "independence came with a cost of lifting the cap on licences, will you support it?


You display your ignorance, Jasbar. I'm surprised you even found it necessary to ask this.
I wouldn't even consider that a cost, I'd call it a bonus.
Have you been listening only to yourself for the last five years? FFS

Anyone who has been on this forum for more than five minutes would know that I have always opposed limits, unlike some I could mention.

A better question would be:
Would you change your tune if Independence meant an end to licence limits?

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