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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:42 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Why should we Unionists need a credible argument in order to maintain things as they are, its as clear as the nose on your face the benefits of staying part of the UK.


So tell us what they are. Help your deluded fellow Scots see the error of their ways.

Of course you don't consider yourself a Scot, do you? :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
Perhaps I could add that, while I perhaps used to think 16 year olds should vote, now I most definitely don't.

I've no doubt that there are some who have given the matter some thought, and whose views deserve respect, whichever side of the debate they come down on. I was politically wary enough at that age to make a reasoned choice. Well, I thought I was at the time.

Now I know I wasn't. Views at that age are based on idealism, not experience. And Scotland's future, and that of the UK, shouldn't be decided on an immature whim.


Sorry if I sound a little skullesque, but didn't you agree with skull's opinion that our views are programmed into us from an early age?
If that is the case, wouldn't the age of the voter be be irrelevant, provided the programming was complete?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
The last bastion of the political ostrich. read it again and answer it. Read it slowly and absorb it.


Well I read it again as you suggested.
It's still just full of your rather twisted opinion, and utterly devoid of any facts.
A mixture of bile, venom, scaremongering and outright lies.
Just what we've come to expect from the unionist camp :lol:

Jasbar wrote:
Then tell me where I've got it wrong :lol:


From the first word to the last, it's all wrong.

Now, can you comment on this?

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf

Why was this report buried by successive UK governments?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:00 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Why should we Unionists need a credible argument in order to maintain things as they are, its as clear as the nose on your face the benefits of staying part of the UK.


So tell us what they are. Help your deluded fellow Scots see the error of their ways.

Of course you don't consider yourself a Scot, do you? :lol:


Im as Scottish as any other Scot...thats the kind of below the belt remark I would expect from SNP types who take the blinkered view that if your not for independence your simply not Scottish.

You cant reason with such people as their concept of Scottishness is a antiquated and false as the myths that surround William Wallace.

Wake up...real Scots do not feel inferior to the English and we realise that we are an equal partner within the UK, we dont have chips on our shoulders nor Historical Axes to grind, We Unionist types simply see a bigger picture than that of the Myopic Salmondites.

I truly sense that the Salmondites have an inferiority complex which they seek to cure by disassociating themselves from what seems to them to be the superior English and all things English.

We Scots are comfortably well off in Comparison to most of the countries of the world, I can see no reason to Jeopardise all that for a bunch of Hector MacDafty type Clowns dressed as Nationalists who are more likely to destroy a healthy Scotland and in the process turn us into the poor man of Europe...thats assuming we even get invited to sit at the EU high table.

Nahhhhhhhh....theres more to lose than to be gained by independence so its just not worth the risk.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Here's one for the doubters to watch

Made and aired by bbc alba :wink:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5047685294

It mentions lots of treacherous acts, treachery that should never and can never be defended.

Controversial but very important to the debate :D

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
Here's one for the doubters to watch

Made and aired by bbc alba :wink:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5047685294

It mentions lots of treacherous acts, treachery that should never and can never be defended.

Controversial but very important to the debate :D


So if you have watched this Programme, you have watched the History of Scotland being oppressed by Westminster, You have seen especially over the last 40 years the dirty tactics to oppress us Scots by denying the economic and political worth of OUR oil and gas, whilst England built the M25, paid for mass un-employment and built the Channel Tunnel, Scotland's industry was demolished and by doing so our Countries social problems evovled because of pure greed and oppression by westminster.

Every Scottish Man Women and Child would have been much better of today if only Westminster had given us a fair share, but NO :cry:

Its funny how things work out though and The SNP now have control of Devolution, we have the majority to ask the question that Scared Westminster back in the 70s, Fate is at play and we Scots will have our day, INDEPENDENCE DAY :D :D :D

Go on unionist's defend that :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:52 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
Private Reggie wrote:
Here's one for the doubters to watch

Made and aired by bbc alba :wink:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5047685294

It mentions lots of treacherous acts, treachery that should never and can never be defended.

Controversial but very important to the debate :D


So if you have watched this Programme, you have watched the History of Scotland being oppressed by Westminster, You have seen especially over the last 40 years the dirty tactics to oppress us Scots by denying us the economic and political worth of OUR oil and gas, whilst England built the M25, paid for mass un-employment and built the Channel Tunnel, Scotland's industry was demolished and by doing so our Countries social problems evovled because of pure greed and oppression by westminster.

Every Scottish Man Women and Child would have been much better of today if only Westminster had given us a fair share, but NO :cry:

Its funny how things work out though and The SNP now have control of Devolution, we have the majority to ask the question that Scared Westminster back in the 70s, Fate is at play and we Scots will have our day, INDEPENDENCE DAY :D :D :D

Go on unionist's defend that :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:08 am 
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You really have no idea do you?

Look around the whole of the UK and see the industrial desolation. Yorkshire and elsewhere, pits closed. Tyneside, Teeside and merseyside, shipbuilding closed and exported abroad. Sheffield steel industry dismantled. Midlands, car making destroyed. (Even London taxis are now made in China) Manufacturing in the whole country reduced from 40% of the economy just after WWII to 13% today. Exploitation shifted from the mills of Lancashire to the sweatshops of the east.

Politicians have also switched self sufficient energy production to dependence on foreign sources. If the Ruskies wanted to bring us to our knees, they'd only have to pull a single lever.

What you're describing has happened all over the country, not just Scotland. The real cause is the struggle between capital and labour, and poor government, which also are globalised, where workers always lose.

And how would Salmond even begin to regenerate any of these industries? Of course, he has no intention to do so. Why should he when he can build trams, bridges and roads here with public money he's got to burn. But where does this money come from in a nation that manufactures nothing.

We should remember we alreadym know how Salmond operates. And how his Scotland of the future would operate. The workers for the new Forth crossing bridge are coming from abroad. The steel is being bought in from China and Germany. Scottish workers will benefit little. Nice one salmond. Nice one Scottish Nasty Party.

That you don't even understand this fundamental flaw in our political and economic system suggests to me that you wouldn't have the wit or ability to address the problem in a supposedly "independent" Scotland.

And given that the SNP, and those like you who support them, are predicated on control over others, and don't even understand market enterprise, proves that you are unfit to govern in the first place.

You're fighting the wrong battle Dougie.

What is certainly true is that Scots like Dougie are well balanced. They have chips on both shoulders.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:24 am 
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BTW 50% vote, from a 50% turnout at the election means only 25% are supporters of the nasty Party. Even some of those would shrink from your version of pseudo independence. methinks you've already lost the argument and that Salmond knows this.

He's just working a flanker to remove the hindrance of SNP independence policy as an obstruction to his desire to rule the roost in our wee pond.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:48 am 
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All of What you stated Jim is à result of mis management and greed, the state we are in has evolved from That period when the revenue from oil and gas could have been used and shared more fairly, you cant disagree with That.

In future if we win the vote on either devo max or full independence i believe as à nation of 5 million we can right the wrongs of the past, we fan invest in jobs and apprentices, we can re-build industries, natural resources bring political power creating bargaining tools to justify my claim That we can right the wrongs of the past.

Scottish people believed before and where wrong concerning the value of oil, this time we can believe in the true value of our old and future natural resources and hopefully vote yes

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:33 am 
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Private Reggie wrote:
All of What you stated Jim is à result of mis management and greed, the state we are in has evolved from That period when the revenue from oil and gas could have been used and shared more fairly, you cant disagree with That.

In future if we win the vote on either devo max or full independence i believe as à nation of 5 million we can right the wrongs of the past, we fan invest in jobs and apprentices, we can re-build industries, natural resources bring political power creating bargaining tools to justify my claim That we can right the wrongs of the past.

Scottish people believed before and where wrong concerning the value of oil, this time we can believe in the true value of our old and future natural resources and hopefully vote yes


Look around you Dougie. Tell me one country where the mismanagement and greed doesn't exist. It's no accident that this is how politicians organise society. They do it because that's what the system requires of them. And they do it because they need to in order to secure their place in that system.

How would an alleged independent Scotland miraculously be any different?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:33 am 
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Jasbar wrote:
You really have no idea do you?

Look around the whole of the UK and see the industrial desolation. Yorkshire and elsewhere, pits closed. Tyneside, Teeside and merseyside, shipbuilding closed and exported abroad. Sheffield steel industry dismantled. Midlands, car making destroyed. (Even London taxis are now made in China) Manufacturing in the whole country reduced from 40% of the economy just after WWII to 13% today. Exploitation shifted from the mills of Lancashire to the sweatshops of the east.

Politicians have also switched self sufficient energy production to dependence on foreign sources. If the Ruskies wanted to bring us to our knees, they'd only have to pull a single lever.

What you're describing has happened all over the country, not just Scotland. The real cause is the struggle between capital and labour, and poor government, which also are globalised, where workers always lose.

And how would Salmond even begin to regenerate any of these industries? Of course, he has no intention to do so. Why should he when he can build trams, bridges and roads here with public money he's got to burn. But where does this money come from in a nation that manufactures nothing.

We should remember we alreadym know how Salmond operates. And how his Scotland of the future would operate. The workers for the new Forth crossing bridge are coming from abroad. The steel is being bought in from China and Germany. Scottish workers will benefit little. Nice one salmond. Nice one Scottish Nasty Party.

That you don't even understand this fundamental flaw in our political and economic system suggests to me that you wouldn't have the wit or ability to address the problem in a supposedly "independent" Scotland.

And given that the SNP, and those like you who support them, are predicated on control over others, and don't even understand market enterprise, proves that you are unfit to govern in the first place.

You're fighting the wrong battle Dougie.

What is certainly true is that Scots like Dougie are well balanced. They have chips on both shoulders.



That's what you call in a nutshell.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:33 am 
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Nidge2 wrote:
That's what you call in a nutshell.


I thought you wanted rid of the haggis bashers?

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:

Look around the whole of the UK and see the industrial desolation. Yorkshire and elsewhere, pits closed. Tyneside, Teeside and merseyside, shipbuilding closed and exported abroad. Sheffield steel industry dismantled. Midlands, car making destroyed. (Even London taxis are now made in China) Manufacturing in the whole country reduced from 40% of the economy just after WWII to 13% today. Exploitation shifted from the mills of Lancashire to the sweatshops of the east.

Politicians have also switched self sufficient energy production to dependence on foreign sources. If the Ruskies wanted to bring us to our knees, they'd only have to pull a single lever.

What you're describing has happened all over the country, not just Scotland. The real cause is the struggle between capital and labour, and poor government, which also are globalised, where workers always lose.



All of this presided over by successive Westminster regimes. :shock:

You make a great case for independence, Jasbar. :wink:

BTW Scotland is more than self sufficent in energy.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:11 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:

Im as Scottish as any other Scot...thats the kind of below the belt remark I would expect from SNP types who take the blinkered view that if your not for independence your simply not Scottish.



Your words, not mine:
bloodnock wrote:
And lastly I can just upsticks and move a mile south into the Eck free zone called England, I have as many relatives there as I have in Scotland because we're borderers first and foremost...


So being Scots is of secondary importance to you? Or is it third, behind British?
That certainly does not make you "as Scottish as any other Scot", far from it.
Most Scots would consider themselves Scottish first and foremost, whether they are unionists, nationalists or undecided.

Your seem to regard being Scottish as a mere accident of geography.
If the border were a couple of miles farther north, you'd be English and no doubt much happier for it.

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