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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:48 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Many mistakes were made that day, that is not in doubt.
96 people died, that also, is not in doubt.
It is clear that the blame for these deaths can be laid at the doors of everyone from the government and FA, to the police, local authority and yes some of the fans.
I doubt any of these parties planned for this tragedy to happen, although their actions all contributed towards it.

This cover up is a different matter altogether.
It happened in the cold light of day and was the deliberate actions of people who knew exactly what they were doing. A calculated exercise in buck passing and arse covering, with the intention of deceiving the public and shifting the blame.
For that there can be no excuse. Those responsible for that should be hung out to dry.

=D> =D> =D>

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:39 am 
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160 altered police notebooks, not 1 copper has blown a whistle on it in the 23 years? not even anonymously?

only ONE ambulance sent to the scene, and that was a St John ambulance?

and ALL the dead (inc children) had bloods tested for alcohol levels

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:02 pm 
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MR T wrote:
So it's your belief that if the fans without tickets apologise to the families that will make everything OK... it was the police's job to control the crowds... that is what they were there for...

Of course it won't make everything OK. But if the ticketless people had not been there the police would have had no trouble with control.
What, in your opinion, should the police have done on the day when faced by the many people, hell bent on getting into the ground without a ticket?
I am sure that with hindsight they may not have opened the gate but what would the consequenses have been then? Do you think that the croud outside would have dispersed quietly?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:15 pm 
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toots wrote:
GBC wrote:
Yes I agree, not one fan that day done anything wrong, all angels, all sober, not a swear word between them, not one pushed into the game.


You forgot to mention that not a single one of them deserved to die ffs, they went to watch a football match. The fans may not have been angels etc etc but they didn't try to cover things up



Never said they did.

But I didn't see any police or ambulance officers pushing the crowd from the back causing the injuries.

And as Grandad and others have raised the point, what would have happened if entry had been refused and the gate remained shut? Deaths outside of the ground due to crushing?

It was ANY game from the 80s. this one went the way many could have gone.

Heisel included.

Perhaps Heisel was a mass illusion on our tv screens?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:20 pm 
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And whilst I'm on a football thread for the first time in my life, let's think back to the Bradford City fire where dozens burnt to death.

Was that the Fire brigades fault? Will we have another enquiry on that to put the blame on another emergency service whilst the football side walks away once more.

Locked fire exits, yobs laughing and encouraging the place to burn, not one football official called the fire brigade, they mobilised themselves after seeing it on telly.

Let's start the clock.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:26 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:
There will be no justice on this issue until EVERY corrupt Police Officer involved is locked up and that wont happen.

This just another revelation in a long line of revelations on police, state, VIOLENCE and corruption often revealed 20 or 30 years after the event as were these below

The Birmingham 6
The Guildford 4
The Winchester 3
The Battle of Orgreave.
Police attacks upon pickets at Wapping
Police attacks upon poll tax demonstrators
and of course Bloody Sunday.

Theres a long and consistent history of the Police in this country of attacking physically innocent people and killing them of being neo fascist in their activities and being corrupt, and surprise surprise nothing has changed for recently we on here debated the MURDER of an innocent civilian recorded for all to see!

Ignore it at your peril for we all need an honest caring Police Service unfortunately history reveals we have just the opposite in our Country.




Go on then Terry, tell us which country of the world you would base your future policing of the British Isles on?

Russia where people are routinely shot and imprisoned for 20 years for protesting against the state?

Asia where torture and real corruption is rife and blatant every day?

Venezuela where people are tortured by the statevandvtheir human rights mean nothing?


You don't know how well off you are living here.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:11 pm 
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GBC wrote:
trotskys twin wrote:
There will be no justice on this issue until EVERY corrupt Police Officer involved is locked up and that wont happen.

This just another revelation in a long line of revelations on police, state, VIOLENCE and corruption often revealed 20 or 30 years after the event as were these below

The Birmingham 6
The Guildford 4
The Winchester 3
The Battle of Orgreave.
Police attacks upon pickets at Wapping
Police attacks upon poll tax demonstrators
and of course Bloody Sunday.

Theres a long and consistent history of the Police in this country of attacking physically innocent people and killing them of being neo fascist in their activities and being corrupt, and surprise surprise nothing has changed for recently we on here debated the MURDER of an innocent civilian recorded for all to see!

Ignore it at your peril for we all need an honest caring Police Service unfortunately history reveals we have just the opposite in our Country.




Go on then Terry, tell us which country of the world you would base your future policing of the British Isles on?

Russia where people are routinely shot and imprisoned for 20 years for protesting against the state?

Asia where torture and real corruption is rife and blatant every day?

Venezuela where people are tortured by the statevandvtheir human rights mean nothing?


You don't know how well off you are living here.


I would hope our Nation my Nation your Nation would lead the way as it has in so many spheres the NHS being a prime example, all you outline is reprehensible and far worse than here, but of course we must not be blinded to what we aspire to achieve A DECENT HONEST FAIR POLICE SERVICE far removed from what Hilsborough and the examples above reveals a situation and organisation that is a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm 
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grandad wrote:
MR T wrote:
So it's your belief that if the fans without tickets apologise to the families that will make everything OK... it was the police's job to control the crowds... that is what they were there for...

Of course it won't make everything OK. But if the ticketless people had not been there the police would have had no trouble with control.
What, in your opinion, should the police have done on the day when faced by the many people, hell bent on getting into the ground without a ticket?
I am sure that with hindsight they may not have opened the gate but what would the consequenses have been then? Do you think that the croud outside would have dispersed quietly?


None of this justifies a cover up.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:16 pm 
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the "cages" were a product of the football hooligans, the millwall/man utd/ICB thugs, they must also bear some blame

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:28 pm 
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GBC wrote:
toots wrote:
GBC wrote:
Yes I agree, not one fan that day done anything wrong, all angels, all sober, not a swear word between them, not one pushed into the game.


You forgot to mention that not a single one of them deserved to die ffs, they went to watch a football match. The fans may not have been angels etc etc but they didn't try to cover things up



Never said they did.

But I didn't see any police or ambulance officers pushing the crowd from the back causing the injuries.

And as Grandad and others have raised the point, what would have happened if entry had been refused and the gate remained shut? Deaths outside of the ground due to crushing?

It was ANY game from the 80s. this one went the way many could have gone.

Heisel included.

Perhaps Heisel was a mass illusion on our tv screens?


Again, none of this justifies a cover up GBC.

The events had already happened and 96 lives were already lost. How were we to learn from this if the true facts are concealed?
This cover up served what purpose exactly? Apart from saving the careers, pensions, honours and reputations of some of the culpable?

What can you possibly offer to justify what amounts to a criminal conspiracy?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:51 pm 
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MR T wrote:
So it's your belief that if the fans without tickets apologise to the families that will make everything OK... it was the police's job to control the crowds... that is what they were there for...



I agree 100% Trevor but when you've got fans turning up drunk and ticketless what are they supposed to do?

Back then and now the Police base their policing on how many fans are attending plus a few more for good measure, they didn't expect the amount of Liverpool fans to turn up ticketless and drunk.

The FA have an awful lot to to answer to, why did they put Liverpool in the smaller end? I'll tell you why, because Leppings Lane was closer to the roads back to Liverpool albeit smaller.

The FA was warned that the ground and surrounding areas weren't upto scratch.

The Police can only work with what tools they have at the time, if they have an old ground which back then still looked like a bomb site what are they supposed to do?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:56 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Again, none of this justifies a cover up GBC.

The events had already happened and 96 lives were already lost. How were we to learn from this if the true facts are concealed?
This cover up served what purpose exactly? Apart from saving the careers, pensions, honours and reputations of some of the culpable?

What can you possibly offer to justify what amounts to a criminal conspiracy?



You've got to look at wannabeahak's question, "160 altered police notebooks, not 1 copper has blown a whistle on it in the 23 years? not even anonymously?"


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Nidge2 wrote:
I agree 100% Trevor but when you've got fans turning up drunk and ticketless what are they supposed to do?


Where they really fans? Wasn't the '80's the prime time of football hooligans and organised yobs disrupting games? I'm not saying that none of them were fans, but, do we know how many weren't. It was a cocktail of errors that caused this and lets just hope it never happens again. Lets hope that families never have to wait so long again for the truth to come out, 23 years with it hanging over their daily lives, not to mention the good people of that time who tried to save lives having their reputation marked and fingers being pointed at them. The whole thing is a disgrace

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:20 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:

I would hope our Nation my Nation your Nation would lead the way as it has in so many spheres the NHS being a prime example, all you outline is reprehensible and far worse than here, but of course we must not be blinded to what we aspire to achieve A DECENT HONEST FAIR POLICE SERVICE far removed from what Hilsborough and the examples above reveals a situation and organisation that is a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!




And in 2012, that's exactly what we have on 99.99% of the time.

It'll never be perfect, there's not a justice system in the world that is. Ours is well up there at the top.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:28 pm 
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gusmac wrote:

Again, none of this justifies a cover up GBC.

The events had already happened and 96 lives were already lost. How were we to learn from this if the true facts are concealed?
This cover up served what purpose exactly? Apart from saving the careers, pensions, honours and reputations of some of the culpable?

What can you possibly offer to justify what amounts to a criminal conspiracy?




I'm not sure with all this publicity and coverage over the years it's been 'covered up' like watergate or something, I don't think there's any denial that it happened and people died.

My points had nothing to do with the allegations of one sided reporting or altered statements, I was referring to the almost reversal and now total blame on the emergency services, whens there's blame all round, including the fans.

I've been to many matches, I see with my own eyes what 'fans' are like at times. My dog behaves better than some fans.


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