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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 am 
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grandad wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
They may well do, but if properly licensed or not as the case may be, what stops them being used on a PH system with drivers that are not licensed under the LG[MP] Act 1976?

I am not sure that I have got this yet. Are you saying that 9-16 passenger vehicles are being used as private hire vehicles?
9-16 passenger vehicles used for payment have to be run by a person with a PCV operators license, driven by a driver with a PCV drivers license and operated under the Traffic Commisioners regulations.

Well they ain't in Brum on Private Hire circuits! Over 8-seat vehicles are regularly used by a number of PH firms.

And what's more, the licensing enforcement and police officer attached to the licensing department don't know how to deal with the situation.

Atlas Cars in Digbeth are the main culprits, standing and plying outside Digbeth Coach Station without a care in the world.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:47 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Well they ain't in Brum on Private Hire circuits! Over 8-seat vehicles are regularly used by a number of PH firms.

I suspect the firm has O licenses for them, in that case they are 100% legal.

Brummie Cabbie wrote:
And what's more, the licensing enforcement and police officer attached to the licensing department don't know how to deal with the situation.

The council's licensing team has no right to deal with them.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:08 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Well they ain't in Brum on Private Hire circuits! Over 8-seat vehicles are regularly used by a number of PH firms.

I suspect the firm has O licenses for them, in that case they are 100% legal.

Brummie Cabbie wrote:
And what's more, the licensing enforcement and police officer attached to the licensing department don't know how to deal with the situation.

The council's licensing team has no right to deal with them.

Just having an "O" license does not neccesarily mean that everything is 100% legal but you are correct that the council has no right to deal with them. It is the traffic commisioner who deals with PCVs.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:42 am 
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Looking at some vehicles running on an O licence the rules must be much relaxed compared to PH and HC regs...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:57 am 
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wannabeeahack wrote:
Looking at some vehicles running on an O licence the rules must be much relaxed compared to PH and HC regs...


you're absolutely spot on.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
standing and plying outside Digbeth Coach Station without a care in the world.

Standing and plying is not allowed under PCV.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:16 am 
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grandad wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
standing and plying outside Digbeth Coach Station without a care in the world.

Standing and plying is not allowed under PCV.

Doing over 30mph on a 30mph speed restricted road ain't allowed either.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:19 am 
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grandad wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Well they ain't in Brum on Private Hire circuits! Over 8-seat vehicles are regularly used by a number of PH firms.

I suspect the firm has O licenses for them, in that case they are 100% legal.

Brummie Cabbie wrote:
And what's more, the licensing enforcement and police officer attached to the licensing department don't know how to deal with the situation.

The council's licensing team has no right to deal with them.

Just having an "O" license does not neccesarily mean that everything is 100% legal but you are correct that the council has no right to deal with them. It is the traffic commisioner who deals with PCVs.

So if we all had O licences and no PH driver licences and worked on PH systems the whole thing would be a complete shambles.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:21 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So if we all had O licences and no PH driver licences and worked on PH systems the whole thing would be a complete shambles.

I don't make the rules. With buses and minibuses there is some sort of rule that means that seperate fares are charged and that all seats are available to the public and that the route is registered with the traffic commissioner before it is operated and that if you wish to terminate this route then you have to give 3 months notice. If you run a 12 seater minibus then if some one wants 8 of those seats, the other 4 seats must be made available to other members of the public to buy.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:27 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So if we all had O licences and no PH driver licences and worked on PH systems the whole thing would be a complete shambles.

Well that was going to be the case until a new law came out saying, in the main, under nine seat O licenses could only operate by charging separate fares.

i.e. one punter charged £5, whilst if three punters got in the same job would have to be £15.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:46 am 
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grandad wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
standing and plying outside Digbeth Coach Station without a care in the world.

Standing and plying is not allowed under PCV.


im on my tacho break occifer.....45 minutes without moving or i have to start all over again.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:54 pm 
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What's been said up to now has been about right.

A PSV can indeed ply for hire wherever it wants to (PCJA states that no vehicle can ply for hire unless it is displaying a PSV operators licence). The analogy would be back in the good old days when you went to the seaside there would be a line of coaches on the sea front offering tours to local places of interest. These service didn't have to be registered because they didn't run to a timetable or indeed every day. A similar situation exists at Dover Western docks where the cruise ships come in.

A pal of mine runs regsitered local bus service tours round dover from there; another pal runs a restricted licence PSV minibus from there, and the local cabbies were moaning about another minibus operator standing there plying for hire, going wherever you wanted. Questions were asked at the CPT and the answer is, it's legal.

What "could" make the Brum operation illegal is if the minibuses run a regular route, i.e. Bull Ring to a housing estate, stopping on the way to pick up or set down. That brings it into the registered bus service domain which as Grandad points out, is a kettle of worms.

There are 3 types of O licence for PSVs: "restricted" (orange disc)issued usually to taxi operators who can run up to 2 16 seaters and not require the financial standing of a full psv licence, and don't need a transport manager; "standard national" (blue disc) which needs financial standing, transport manager, and allows whatever operation you want in the UK; "international" (green disc) which allows the same as the standard national, but also to operate internationally. there's also community bus s19 and s22 permits used usually by charity groups and the like. these CANNOT be used for hire and reward and come under separate regulations.

What I'd suggest in the Brum case is to go bus spotting. see what O licence (if any) is displayed, note the operator's name and address which should be on the side of the vehicle, registration number and the like, and if it seems to be running regularly, reprt it to VOSA. enquiries@vosa.gov.uk is the email address. They would be especially interested if as I suspect some of these minibuses don't display o licences. the other thing to look out for is whether or not tachos are being used, a neccesity for virtually ALL psv operations except certain registered local bus routes.

My company has O licences and a letter of authority from the Traffic Commissioner to run an under 9 seat vehicle on that O licence; it also has a couple of PH operator licences!

Edited to add that there's different types of sepaarate fares; graduated separate fares that you'd find on the local bus service, or one fare paid by each person such as that you'd find on a coach going from A to B. There's also private hire, where a single hirer could hire the vehicle from an operator and charge the people in that group the cost of the hire, Here, the person hiring the bus or bringing the group together must not be the owner or driver of the vehicle. The latter case would or should be the instance used in Brum.

There is also private hire where the vehicle is hired by an organisation such as a school where the passengers pay no fare.


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