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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Here's one for you and Chomsky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnW8dmJ0Fl4

It's about all you have to offer.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:00 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Here's one for you and Chomsky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnW8dmJ0Fl4

It's about all you have to offer.


"Why should Scots vote for independence?"

I don't know if you've noticed the title to the thread, but I would say you've failed miserably to make any sort of argument, in support of Independence.

If anything, you've proven quite adequately you have bought into a PR stunt, hosted by the Scottish nasty party. Chomsky is correct. They are playing on your emotions. And once again, you have done little or nothing to inform yourself as to how the system really works.

In short, you haven't got a clue. :-|


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:14 am 
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TBH what it all proves is how morally corrupt the political system actually is, it isn't democratic by any means.

The SNP once aspired to nationalise the bus service, this obviously stopped once stagecoach bosses (who were obviously opposed to such public mindedness) began to fund them........it hasn't been seized upon by the other political parties because they are equally morally corrupt having promised much in the past and failed to deliver.....or indeed done the usual thing and stopped such policies upon the sight of a large cheque.

Its all a sideshow in the grand scheme of things, the headlines this week are about some daft speech about Europe from the PM and of course beef burgers and some tiff in Algeria........none of which are of any true consequence to the workers of either Jessops, HMV or the other businesses that are closing......and will soon be collecting their dole money.

A couple of c*nts got jailed today this sentences that will see them imprisoned for a good few years, they defrauded a few banks out of many millions of pounds.......I cant remember a single banker (at the top of the food chain) being jailed for bankrupting countries.......costing us all trillions.

FFS we went to war with Iraq on the basis of a 'sexed' up fraudulent document.....it cost millions of lives, yet not a single person responsible got jailed.

Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:51 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Is Skull right tae use this chomsky as reason to vote no? No has consequences as well but he doesnae want tae speak aboot them.

He jist wants tae show abidy how clever he thinks he is. Numpty

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:08 am 
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wizzkid wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Is Skull right tae use this chomsky as reason to vote no? No has consequences as well but he doesnae want tae speak aboot them.

He jist wants tae show abidy how clever he thinks he is. Numpty


Wizzkid, I can understand how you and your chum Gusmac, feel inferior, but it’s hardly my fault you choose ignorance and false belief over educating yourself on how the system really works. And as for the consequences of using Chomsky to vote no, I’m not doing either.

Yes, if you actually managed to achieve independence, you’ll be able to paint your face blue and run around the street's shouting freedom, but that’s about it. Scotland will simply be turned into an enclave operated by those in power as their little fiefdom with the rest of the UK becoming a foreign territory. I would like things to be different but unlike you, I’m just not prepared to take a politician's word for it.

Show me a constitution with the checks and balances to deliver a real democracy, and I might consider voting for Independence, but until then, I wouldn’t hold your breath.

You and Gusmac are sold on the SNP, PR fairy tale of what Scotland might become, if Salmond and his ilk turn out to be benevolent dictators loaded with cash, who are so besotted with kindness, equality and fair play we are all destined to live happily ever after.

It's a wee bit of a stretch, don't you think? #-o

Here’s the truth of it, succinctly put by CC:

Quote:
TBH what it all proves is how morally corrupt the political system actually is, it isn't democratic by any means.

=D>


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:55 am 
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Skull wrote:
"Why should Scots vote for independence?"
I don't know if you've noticed the title to the thread, but I would say you've failed miserably to make any sort of argument, in support of Independence.


Oh, sorry Gary, I didn't realise I had to. Any more than you were going to tell us why we shouldn't. :roll:

You have actually failed to say anything of any note, other than to confirm my opinion of you. You are a unionist and a unionist without even the decency to admit it.

Has Chomsky actually said anything about Scotland or are you just trying to put your unionist spin on his opinions?

Now, other than your feeble attempts to use Chomsky as some sort of substitute for any real argument for retaining the union, he really has nothing to do with the independence debate.
Any more than those "they stole r fleg!" knuckle-draggers outside Sturgeon's office last weekend.

Deny it all you like Gary, but your views lead to only one conclusion. Perhaps you should try no surrender or we arra peepil instead.
At least you fellow unionists will then understand what you mean. All this Chomsky stuff is far to high brow for most of them :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:04 am 
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wizzkid wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Is Skull right tae use this chomsky as reason to vote no? No has consequences as well but he doesnae want tae speak aboot them.

He jist wants tae show abidy how clever he thinks he is. Numpty


You're right there Kath. He wants a No vote and he wants the union. And he really doesn't want to talk about what will happen if we reject independence.
He's using Chomsky to deflect and sidetrack the real argument, in the same way Chomsky himself accuses politicians of doing.
It's quite laughable really.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:13 am 
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captain cab wrote:

Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Get yourself up here CC and you will see a never ending barrage of deflection and sidetracking from the media.
Unfortunately they all support the union. None of them are doing it in support of Independence.

Personally I think Chomsky would argue that all politicians are c*nts, and he'd hardly favour one bunch of c*nts over another, like the Skull does. :roll:

How you keeping BTW?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:49 am 
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This is the sort of thing the unionists don't want to discus.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:47 am 
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gusmac wrote:
captain cab wrote:

Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Get yourself up here CC and you will see a never ending barrage of deflection and sidetracking from the media.
Unfortunately they all support the union. None of them are doing it in support of Independence.

Personally I think Chomsky would argue that all politicians are c*nts, and he'd hardly favour one bunch of c*nts over another, like the Skull does. :roll:

How you keeping BTW?



I am merely pointing out that whatever the vote you're going to get c*nts running the country :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:10 am 
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captain cab wrote:
gusmac wrote:
captain cab wrote:

Skull is right to point to Chomsky, because he regularly points to deflection and the media being used to side track the true issues.


Get yourself up here CC and you will see a never ending barrage of deflection and sidetracking from the media.
Unfortunately they all support the union. None of them are doing it in support of Independence.

Personally I think Chomsky would argue that all politicians are c*nts, and he'd hardly favour one bunch of c*nts over another, like the Skull does. :roll:

How you keeping BTW?



I am merely pointing out that whatever the vote you're going to get c*nts running the country :wink:


I accept that, but I know which bunch of c*nts I prefer and I don't hide it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:13 am 
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Interesting piece from today's hootsman

No answer came the stern reply

By JOYCE MCMILLAN
Published on Friday 18 January 2013

SADLY, the campaign to maintain the Union seems increasingly devoid of any trace of positive aspiration, writes Joyce McMillan

TUESDAY afternoon, and at Westminster, the House of Commons is grinding its way through its debate on Section 30, the statutory instrument transferring to the Scottish Parliament the power to organise and hold next year’s referendum on Scottish independence.

There is a goodish speech from the Secretary of State, Michael Moore, respectful and civic in tone, setting out the case for the agreement reached between the UK and Scottish governments; there are a couple of decent responses from SNP MPs Angus Robertson and Angus MacNeil. And for Scottish Labour, Mark Lazarowicz of Edinburgh North and Leith stands out as an exceptional voice of intelligence and reason, pointing out the relatively final nature of a Yes vote in 2014, and the need to avoid introducing ethnic definitions of Scottishness in deciding who will have a referendum vote.

Beyond that, though – well, it would be kind, if not sensible, to draw a veil over much of what was said on the No side of the debate. In the first place, there was widespread indignation at the idea that this decision should be left to people living in Scotland; clearly, many MPs at Westminster have been entirely absent, in mind and spirit, from the crucial debate between ethnic and civic definitions of citizenship that has been raging across Europe since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Then secondly, there is the main burden of the Unionist refrain, which boils down to a repeated suggestion that whereas Westminster is clearly a proper parliament which makes wise and decent decisions, Holyrood is some kind of jumped-up assembly dominated by the “dictatorship” of Alex Salmond, and therefore cannot be trusted to make responsible use of the referendum powers transferred to it. Now I am not here to defend either the ethics or the record in government of the SNP; as parties go, I’m sure they can be as bullying, as centralising, and as intolerant of dissident voices as well, as New Labour in its pomp, or the Tories under Margaret Thatcher.

What is downright absurd, though, is the sound of many Westminster MPs seriously suggesting that the government at Holyrood somehow has less legitimacy than any Westminster government; that Alex Salmond has no “right” to his tiny overall majority because he won less than 50 per cent of votes (this from a parliament where Tony Blair, in 2005, won a crushing majority of seats with barely 35 per cent of the vote); and that in any case he obviously cannot be trusted to run a fair referendum, because he is – well – a Scottish Nationalist.

Now I should pause here to say that I am not a political nationalist of any stripe, and never will be. I care for democracy and social justice, and I do not care for any creed which seeks to divide people whose economic interests are fundamentally similar. As a child, I was proud enough to be part of the British nation that had played a key role in defeating Nazism. As a teenager, I was thrilled to be part of the new, more egalitarian Britain of the 1960s and 1970’, and of a pop culture that was the envy of the world.

In my late 30s and early 40s, travelling across Europe as part of a post-1989 human rights network, I received a memorable crash-course in the dangers of disintegrative nationalism, in Yugoslavia and elsewhere. In the 1990s, I was delighted to make common cause with constitutional reformers across the UK, for the kind of modernised and devolved British democracy that New Labour briefly promised, and partly delivered. And even now, I am proud to be part of a British trade union movement that has tried, under decades of sustained political and cultural attack, to keep speaking up for ordinary working people, and the real economic issues they face.

What I have to ask, though, in this bleak January of 2013, is exactly what that voice of Unionist Westminster now has to offer me, as a supporter of social justice, democracy and human rights?

Heaven knows, the SNP offers little enough; a declared commitment to social-democratic values, combined with a dangerous ideological and intellectual vagueness about the nature of the political struggle that will have to be waged, if those values are to be advanced in our century.

Yet what I see at Westminster now is not an alternative politics that avoids the pitfalls of nationalism, but an instinctive, backward-looking British nationalism that is even worse: a farrago of double standards about Westminster and Holyrood, and of reactionary nonsense about the nature of national identity in the 21st century, combined with a complete vacuum of progressive policy, and an instinctive willingness – on the part of the Labour Party – to side in this debate with what is perhaps the most privileged and reactionary government the UK has seen in a century.

The truth is that the tone of the No camp’s response to the independence debate has – in too many cases – been so reactionary, so negative, and so fundamentally disrespectful of the Scottish Parliament as an institution, that I now find it hard to think of voting with them, no matter what my views on the constitution.

And this, for me, is a new experience in politics – to enter a debate with a strongish view on one side of the argument, and to find myself so repelled by the tone and attitudes of those who should be my allies that I am gradually forced into the other camp. On the moribund centre-left of UK politics, it seems there simply is no dynamic vision of a future Britain, to set against the SNP’s vague but not entirely unachievable vision of a greener, fairer and more prosperous Scotland.

For what the No camp apparently fails to understand is that for people of progressive mind – and that used to include the Labour Party – politics has to be about hope, as well as fear.

They have told us, repeatedly, of what there is to fear, if Scotland votes Yes to independence.

Of what there would be to hope for, though, in a new UK for the 21st century – of that they have said almost nothing.

And increasingly, I feel that that may be because there is nothing more to be said.


http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmi ... -1-2745048

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:25 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Interesting piece from today's hootsman

No answer came the stern reply

By JOYCE MCMILLAN
Published on Friday 18 January 2013

SADLY, the campaign to maintain the Union seems increasingly devoid of any trace of positive aspiration, writes Joyce McMillan

TUESDAY afternoon, and at Westminster, the House of Commons is grinding its way through its debate on Section 30, the statutory instrument transferring to the Scottish Parliament the power to organise and hold next year’s referendum on Scottish independence.

There is a goodish speech from the Secretary of State, Michael Moore, respectful and civic in tone, setting out the case for the agreement reached between the UK and Scottish governments; there are a couple of decent responses from SNP MPs Angus Robertson and Angus MacNeil. And for Scottish Labour, Mark Lazarowicz of Edinburgh North and Leith stands out as an exceptional voice of intelligence and reason, pointing out the relatively final nature of a Yes vote in 2014, and the need to avoid introducing ethnic definitions of Scottishness in deciding who will have a referendum vote.

Beyond that, though – well, it would be kind, if not sensible, to draw a veil over much of what was said on the No side of the debate. In the first place, there was widespread indignation at the idea that this decision should be left to people living in Scotland; clearly, many MPs at Westminster have been entirely absent, in mind and spirit, from the crucial debate between ethnic and civic definitions of citizenship that has been raging across Europe since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Then secondly, there is the main burden of the Unionist refrain, which boils down to a repeated suggestion that whereas Westminster is clearly a proper parliament which makes wise and decent decisions, Holyrood is some kind of jumped-up assembly dominated by the “dictatorship” of Alex Salmond, and therefore cannot be trusted to make responsible use of the referendum powers transferred to it. Now I am not here to defend either the ethics or the record in government of the SNP; as parties go, I’m sure they can be as bullying, as centralising, and as intolerant of dissident voices as well, as New Labour in its pomp, or the Tories under Margaret Thatcher.

What is downright absurd, though, is the sound of many Westminster MPs seriously suggesting that the government at Holyrood somehow has less legitimacy than any Westminster government; that Alex Salmond has no “right” to his tiny overall majority because he won less than 50 per cent of votes (this from a parliament where Tony Blair, in 2005, won a crushing majority of seats with barely 35 per cent of the vote); and that in any case he obviously cannot be trusted to run a fair referendum, because he is – well – a Scottish Nationalist.

Now I should pause here to say that I am not a political nationalist of any stripe, and never will be. I care for democracy and social justice, and I do not care for any creed which seeks to divide people whose economic interests are fundamentally similar. As a child, I was proud enough to be part of the British nation that had played a key role in defeating Nazism. As a teenager, I was thrilled to be part of the new, more egalitarian Britain of the 1960s and 1970’, and of a pop culture that was the envy of the world.

In my late 30s and early 40s, travelling across Europe as part of a post-1989 human rights network, I received a memorable crash-course in the dangers of disintegrative nationalism, in Yugoslavia and elsewhere. In the 1990s, I was delighted to make common cause with constitutional reformers across the UK, for the kind of modernised and devolved British democracy that New Labour briefly promised, and partly delivered. And even now, I am proud to be part of a British trade union movement that has tried, under decades of sustained political and cultural attack, to keep speaking up for ordinary working people, and the real economic issues they face.

What I have to ask, though, in this bleak January of 2013, is exactly what that voice of Unionist Westminster now has to offer me, as a supporter of social justice, democracy and human rights?

Heaven knows, the SNP offers little enough; a declared commitment to social-democratic values, combined with a dangerous ideological and intellectual vagueness about the nature of the political struggle that will have to be waged, if those values are to be advanced in our century.

Yet what I see at Westminster now is not an alternative politics that avoids the pitfalls of nationalism, but an instinctive, backward-looking British nationalism that is even worse: a farrago of double standards about Westminster and Holyrood, and of reactionary nonsense about the nature of national identity in the 21st century, combined with a complete vacuum of progressive policy, and an instinctive willingness – on the part of the Labour Party – to side in this debate with what is perhaps the most privileged and reactionary government the UK has seen in a century.

The truth is that the tone of the No camp’s response to the independence debate has – in too many cases – been so reactionary, so negative, and so fundamentally disrespectful of the Scottish Parliament as an institution, that I now find it hard to think of voting with them, no matter what my views on the constitution.

And this, for me, is a new experience in politics – to enter a debate with a strongish view on one side of the argument, and to find myself so repelled by the tone and attitudes of those who should be my allies that I am gradually forced into the other camp. On the moribund centre-left of UK politics, it seems there simply is no dynamic vision of a future Britain, to set against the SNP’s vague but not entirely unachievable vision of a greener, fairer and more prosperous Scotland.

For what the No camp apparently fails to understand is that for people of progressive mind – and that used to include the Labour Party – politics has to be about hope, as well as fear.

They have told us, repeatedly, of what there is to fear, if Scotland votes Yes to independence.

Of what there would be to hope for, though, in a new UK for the 21st century – of that they have said almost nothing.

And increasingly, I feel that that may be because there is nothing more to be said.


http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmi ... -1-2745048


What a load of pash. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:27 pm 
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It is staggering Gusmac. You seem to see everything as either pro Union or an attack on Independence, when anyone points out how the system really works. Although you do admit that whoever you vote in, you’ll end up with a bunch of cu**s running the place, in other words, a political class working on behalf of the wealthy elite.

Chomsky is right the political system is merely a PR stunt for those deficient in the relevant knowledge or experience to know any better. That’s why Salmond targets, ill-informed wee flag waving tartan feckwits, because he knows that most people with at least half a brain, don’t take independence seriously. #-o

Oh and as for me being pro Union or against independence, the current political system renders any thoughts on who to vote for, irrelevant. And it’s the same for most people North and South of the border. You might as well take your voting slip and wipe your ar*e with it, for all the difference it will make.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Oh and Gusmac, the political class or their wealthy elite don’t care what side of the border you fall on. We are all pawns to be controlled and manipulated to their benefit, and independence won’t change a thing. It’s simply not in their interests. :-|


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