Taxi Driver Online

Hi there,

I'm producing a radio feature on the recent crack-down on unlicensed taxi drivers that often operate outside of clubs and pubs and am interested in the opinions of licensed taxi drivers on the matter.

I am creating the feature from the persepctive of a young female... the dangers and fears involved. I'd appreciate any views, comments or advice that taxi drivers and customers out there have on the matter. Stories and real-life experiences would be great.

Basically, the aim of the feature is to warn people of the dangers and any advice on where to get info would be fantastic.

The feature will be broadcast on ExStreameast online radio.

Thanks in advance!

Katie

There is plenty of advice out there for anyone that takes their time to find it; this one from crime stoppers is a good start.
http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/solving ... nalsafety/

However late at night a significant number of people don't care how they get home. I'm quite sure if I stuck my roof light on a milk float, I would get custom.

This doesn't excuse illegal activities, but all the time the police and licensing officers turn a blind eye, then it will continue.

Part of me thinks that late at night the authorities just want people off the streets, and back at home. To me they don't seem to care too much how they get there.

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IDFIMH

I assume you're talking from a London perspective then Katie?

I think the root of the problem is public confusion on the issue, and I think this stems from the mish mash of practices throughout the country.

- In London you have the licensed black cabs, expensive and difficult to get at peak times, and impossilbe in some suburban areas.

- To fill the gap left by the black cabs (because it's difficult to become a black cab driver) you have minicabs. These have historically been completetly unlicensed, therefore a convictd rapist or murderer could drive one. That's not to say that they were illegal; as long as they only did pre-booked work, and had proper insurance etc, then they were OK. But some did pick up illegally without being booked, and then there were the touts who were totally illegitimate and basically the source of the worst problems.

But over the years, the authorities basically turned a blind eye to the problem, and the black cab trade didn't want proper licensing for the minicabs, because it would legitimise them, and thus to that extent the whole thing was difficult to control.

And as happens so often with government, by the time they actually got round to doing something about the problem, it was so far out of control as to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get a grip of.

So now the mainstream minicab sector is being licensed. But this does not affect the illegal touts, unless there is strict enforcement, but it seems that the problem is too out of control to fix that, in the short term at least.

Hence the current crackdown you mention?

Of course, it seems that there are both licensed minicabs and unlicensed touts that wait outside pubs and clubs, but neither can pick up without being pre-booked, so it's not clear if the crackdown is targetting one or the other or both.

And there may be some kind of booking system operated by clubs (for example) which may render the arrangement legal, but that's a grey area legally.

But the problem is that the whole practice is so ingrained, and enforcement has been so lax, that many people just accept it, and the public don't know the law, what's legal and what's not, and the police are reluctant to act.

And as is typical of modern policing, they tend not to bother about less serious crime, and worry more about keeping the peace and clearing people from the streets. So they allow illegal plying for hire, but of course when something happens as a consequence they're suddenly all holier than thou, and tell us how bad these touts are, and that they're doing us a favour by having a crackdown or whatever.

And of course, that's just from the trade perspective; as I said above, the customers don't know the score, which stems from the neglect of the authorities, and also, as befits many people these days, they just don't seem to bother about their own safety, with getting drunk/high being the priority.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

I don't think the problem of illegal touts is as bad in the rest of the country, but I think the mish mash of approaches to licensing there is the source of the problems.

For example, instead of black cabs many other places use ordinary saloon cars as taxis, so they are allowed to pick up off the streets. But in some areas the same cars are used as minicabs, and some of the minicabs looks more like taxis than the actual taxis in other areas.

So the cars look like taxis, the public don't know the difference, the police turn a blind eye, the 'revellers' couldn't care less, and are too drunk to notice anyway.

Here endeth the lesson

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

In cardiff hackney cabs are yr traditonal london black cab or a saloon car. in respect of a salon car they are black and whites with a light on top. private hire cabs must be a different colour and not allowed any lights thus makin the 2 clearly different

However, if you go a mere 4 miles out of the city centre you are into a differetn council and so different regulations. Here the private hire and hakcney cabs look identical, he only way of tellin the two apart is by looking at the plate on the rear bumper, and not all hackneys have a light on top, that varies firm to firm it seems. This probably dosent help when people from this area come down to cardiff, dont know the difference in taxis and jus get into joe bloggs beat up sierra thinkin its a taxi

Thank you so much for your replies... it looks like it's a much more complex issue than I thought.

I am indeed focusing on London (because I'm living here) but am aware that the issue is a UK-wide one. I am originally from Australia where we don't seem to have such a big problem... but then again, I was from a relatively small city - large cities such as Sydney may well have similar issues. I guess I am at awe of the illegal touts that I find myself confronted with when coming out of a venue late at night.

I was even more surprised at being approached when walking home with friends at night... i.e - completely normal looking cars driving up and offering a 'lift'.

Is this what you are referring to when you say 'illegal touts'?

Walking home in NOT in the game plan anymore... far too dangerous.

I'm going to do a lot more research into it all and the first step is understanding the current licensing laws - I didn't realise there were so many 'grey areas'.

Thaks you for taking the time out to answer my questions - it's MUCH appreciated! If you know of anyone who would be willing to have their views recorded in a short interview I'm looking for willing participants.

Katie

And have you noticed what all of these people who stand outside the clubs, and pull up next to you chanting 'taxee taxee' have in common Katie?

I'm sure an intelligent person like yourself will know what i make reference to.

I think an illegal tout is someone that's not licensed to pick you up, full stop.

Anyone who offers his/her service, other than a black cab or a private hire via a formal booking, is acting outside the law.

If someone comes up to you saying taxi, then they are touting, which is an illegal act. Their vehicles will not have been checked, and neither will the driver.

If the only option is a tout, then walking is the safest way.

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IDFIMH

Yes, I'm sure she will, but then presumably she would have noticed anyway without you pointing it out.

But your point is?

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

There's no doubt that it goes on throughout the world, but I suspect the problem is greater in London than in other western capitals.

Westernised countries generally have two tier trade regulation - ie a taxi sector and a second-tier sector that cannot pick customers up off the streets - they have to be pre-booked either by telephone or through a registered office of some kind.

For example, New York has the yellow taxis, London has the black cabs, and I think Sydney has a similar yellow taxi sector. But Sydney also has a second-tier (perhaps called hire cars?) while New York has a hire car sector made up of 'black cars', vans (mpvs) and limos.

The difference between such cities and London is that the latter's second-tier has historically been unregulated, hence its propensity for illegality.

It seems that the London black cab trade was instrumental in keeping the second-tier (minicabs) unregulated for so long, apparently because they were worried about how legitimising the sector would pose a greater competive threat.

It's also worth mentioning that the second-tier in the rest of England has been regulated since the 60s (usually called 'private hire') and of course the same process is currently underway in London, followed the passing of legislation in 1998.

However, the point of all this is that I suspect that the unregulated nature of the second tier minicabs is the reason why things have gotten so out of hand, and of course it's quite easy for the authorities to let things get into such a mess, but significantly more difficult for them to turn things round again.

Of course, the second-tier has never been illegal as such, just unregulated, but the actual act of touting has always been illegal.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

There are two concepts that have to be considered, namely 'plying for hire' and 'touting'.

Plying for hire is basically sitting at taxi ranks or cruising the streets while trying to get work, and only taxis can do this (ie black cabs in London).

Touting is approaching people to offer your services, and even the black cabs can't do this.

But now that the minicabs in London are licensed the term 'illegal tout' should perhaps be clarified - I would say that this term is best applied to the cars and drivers that aren't licensed at all. Of course, the licensed minicabs can still tout, but perhaps the phrase 'illegal tout' isn't quite accurate, perhaps something like 'minicab driver touting illegaly' more accurately describes things.

Another problem is minicabs/private hire vehicles plying for hire. However, in London I suspect this has been less of a problem that touting, purely because minicabs have been largely indistinguishable from ordinarly private motorists, thus the only way of minicab drivers securing work illegally is to tout potential customers.

On the other hand, elsewhere in England illegal plying for hire by minicabs/Private hire is much more common because they often look like taxis, so the public often flag them down or approach them in the street, and as I said the other day the public are often unaware that such vehicles aren't allowed to ply for hire in this way.

Again, part of the problem is that elsewhere in England taxis often do not have to be black cabs but can be just the same kind of vehicles used as minicabs, but since they often have advertising on the door or signs on the roof this leads the public to think that they can be hired there and then without being pre-booked.

I don't think touting is a major problem outside London, but plying for hire is, and there's often little enforcement by the authorities.

But hopefully the above will shed some light on how these problems arise.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

tdo dont tell me laptop on a stand...t

That Londons turning into a third world city?

Mr/Mrs TDO, I'm still waiting for the evidence on this one.

As long as I can remember, the London Taxi trade has always called for a licensing process with regard to minicabs, not as you suggest encouraging it to remain a free for all both in types of drivers employed and vehicles operated.

Mr/Mrs GBC, sorry I don't have any specific evidence to hand, I thought it was just a common knowledge kind of thing in the smoke.

As I said a few weeks ago, someone who takes an interest in these matters said to me in a private email:

That is why, for example, there has been no licencing of minicabs
for so long in London: because the black cabs have lobbied so relentlessly
against it because they don't want competition.

If I find anything else I'll give you a shout.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk