Taxi Driver Online

In this case it doesn't matter a jot what I think, it's the views of the gov and the courts that does. And they view PH picking up illegally as clear evidence of SUD.

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IDFIMH

actually matey, you are looking at the wrong date as the link has been updated, basically it tells the story of a women who got in to a silver left hand drive bmw and was raped at 4 in the morning - she thought it was a taxi.

I've done that a couple of times, the url address for the story changes from what you were wanting to post.

Would'nt worry about it.

I'm still struggling to see how this provides evidence of unmet demand?

Long waiting times, yep.

Lots of drivers waiting for work with no vehicle plates available, yep I can see the arguement there, but people breaking the law (now an Arrestable Offence under Sec 24 PACE) and touting, I can't see how that show's an unmet demand?

As I said above, no matter how many Taxi's there are, greed will take over and SOME Private Hire drivers will go looking for fares.

As long as people have a perception they are cheaper than paying the metered fare, (which of course in many cases they are not) they will use them, despite Taxi's being available.

The mind boggles

My apologies Mr 187ums, it's a least a few hours since we had a wind-up on here, so I thought you were it.

The story was:

'Time to act to end taxi rapes'
by Staff reporter

Taxi drivers in Oxford are calling for action against unlicensed "cabbies" to prevent more assaults like the ones carried out by rapist Sam Rahmouni.

Rahmouni, 27, of Danes Road, Bicester, was jailed for eight years on Wednesday (May 25)for raping one passenger and assaulting another, in an unlicensed minicab.

A jury at Oxford Crown Court convicted Rahmouni after hearing that he posed as a bogus taxi driver and used his silver BMW to earn "pocket money" on top of his wages.

He drove a 27-year-old woman to a deserted car park and raped her before taking her home. His second victim, a 19-year-old student, paid him a £4 fare after he sexually assaulted her.

Law-abiding cab drivers, whose records are checked regularly, have called on police and Oxford City Council to be tougher on any "taxis" that do not have a licence.

Alan Woodward, secretary of the City of Oxford Licensed Cab Association, which represents the drivers of black cabs, said: "We are glad this individual has been caught but enforcement is the only thing that will stop it happening again.

"We've been pushing for more enforcement from the police and the city council for a long time, and they claim they haven't got the time to do it.

"There has been virtually no enforcement over the last year or so, much to our disgust. The council has three enforcement officers for taxis, but they claim to not have enough time.

"It is easier for them to check the public's complaints about being overcharged, or driven the long way round, than to carry out street enforcement. They won't have problems dealing with complaints about licensed drivers, but unlicensed ones can be intimidating. The council officers need police officers with them."

Taxi firms also want the public to be aware of the difference between private hire cars and black cabs.

The city has 106 black cabs and around 300 private hire vehicles.

Private hire cars have a yellow sign on the side, and are licensed to take passengers who have pre-booked them. It is illegal for them to be flagged down in the street.

Black cabs, also known as Hackney carriages, have a yellow light with a "taxi" sign, and can be flagged down in the street.

George Bashir, manager at Ride Cabs, in Abingdon, which runs private hire vehicles as well as Hackney carriages, said: "Cases like Rahmouni's give us a bad name and are bad for business because females are often reluctant to get in our cars."

Louisa Dean, Oxford City Council press officer, said: "We run courses for police officers in Oxford when we are asked to."

She said the council was aware of the enforcement issues, and was planning to employ another officer.

A spokesman for Thames Valley Police said they held regular reviews and joint operations with the city's council's taxi licensing office to crack down on unlicensed cabs. There were frequest stop-checks to ensure they were displaying the correct badges.

"We also advise women not to get into unmarked taxis," said the spokesman.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

I think the view that the courts take is that people won't wait indefinitely for a taxi, so if they just measure waiting time at the rank then that will be unrepresentative of unmet demand because some of the longer waiters will have given up, jumped into a PH (either legally or not) or not bother with a taxi in the first place.

It's hardly condoning breaking the law, it's just demonstrating an unmet demand.

The judge in the Castle Point case said:

The analysis of the rank observations revealed that a large proportion of the activity at the ranks away from Benfleet Station was carried out by the private hire trade. This amounted to 150 rank hirings with a further 250 empty departures per week. These hirings are in effect pseudo hackney carriage activity and as such should in law be undertaken by an appropriately licensed vehicle.

Later he said:

He has still to face the stark statistic of 150 private hire vehicles leaving the informal ranks with passengers each week. To my mind this clearly represents significant demand for taxi services, unmet by the taxis. In their report Halcrow Fox also added that evidence from its public attitude interviews had provided further evidence of suppressed demand for taxi services.

However, he had earlier condemned the illegal activity, saying:

The observation to the effect that such hirings were, in effect, pseudo hackney carriage activity, and as such should in law be undertaken by an appropriately licensed vehicle, was an observation that they were unlawful. Had they been booked by telephone, they would not have been unlawful. I need add only that this morning it has also been made clear that the ranks from which these 400 weekly departures were made were not any of the official taxi ranks on the island. They were no more than areas where private hire vehicles are wont to wait for custom. But that, of course, does not affect the unlawfulness of the activities of the 150 vehicles.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

By the way, I think you're equating touting with illegal plying for hire, but I don't think anyone mentioned touting.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

What they say, is that if people who are looking for a taxi home can't get one, yet can find a PH, then that's taxi demand that hasn't been met by taxis.

I know it's confusing, and if we didn't have taxi quotas, then it wouldn't matter, but alas we do and it does.

To give you a slightly better idea how the courts view this issue, spend a little while reading the Castlepoint judgement.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2002/1526.html

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IDFIMH

This debate gets more and more interesting, the way i see it restrictive policies are good, they stop the market from being flooded and resulting in over capacity, thus resulting in lower takings for all.

People get into PH not because of unmet demand but in the belief that they are cheaper than a black cab, and they have always used private hire.

I obviously work in a regulated area, i can tell you most of the time you are waiting for the customer, the exceptions are Friday/Saturday nights, just for those two hours, if it was a free for all, then believe me it would be bedlam.

The existing system works well, but obviously the alternatives are coming........

Flooded by what?

If you mean cabs, then we go back to the driver/cab ratio. What's the difference between 100 cabs having 200 drivers in a restricted area and 200 cabs having 200 drivers in an open area?

If you mean drivers, then that's the way it is in all both restricted and open areas.

Ditto PH drivers and vehicles.

One problem with restricting taxi numbers is that any demand they cannot meet is met by the un-restricted PH trade. So any stories about congestion and pollution is pure rubbish.

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IDFIMH

If what you say is correct then you need worry not, because if there is no work, then people wont license vehicles to earn nothing.

It's like the stupid comments from the T&G about the rural areas, or out-skirts of towns/cities, being neglected following de-limitation.

All I can say is that a driver must be pretty thick to license a cab and sit around scratching his bum in the town centre, when there is bundles of work elsewhere being ignored.

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IDFIMH

I think you must be talking about plate holders rather than drivers, since in restricted areas there's no cap on driver numbers so the market is flooded anyway, and the fact that there's a 'shortage' of drivers in many restricted areas demonstrates that the driver's take is just limited by the free market.

And even if the driver has more takings in a restricted area the benefit of this just goes to the plate holder in the form of higher rentals.

So your approach is basically characterised by double standards.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

That's a huge generalisation. There may be an element of truth in the price, but what about places like Brighton, where PH and taxis charge the same?

And as was demonstrated at the Trans Comm meeting, black cabs in Manchester cherry pick which areas they serve, so clearly the can't even choose a black cab, so how can you say that their choice is just based on price? It's the same everywhere as far as I can tell.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

There's a very fine line between the two.
I am aware the offence can be commited by Licensed Taxi's as well, but in the main the law is aimed at the common 'tout' and also the Licensed PH driver who takes it upon himself to stand next to his car and ask people if they want a cab.

I understand that Sussex, and I have had a little read of the stated case.

Perhaps its me not being clear my point was that, certainly in London, where there are Taxi's floating around, available, some LPH drivers will tout regardless, and some members of the travelling public will use them regardless because they are perceived as being cheaper, when in fact we all know that in many instances they are far from it.

So taking that into account, I was querying how people using touts / LPH stopping for street pick ups, would or could be viewed as a need for more Taxi's, when in fact the Taxi's are there, and in significant numbers.

Which took me to my comments on better enforcement being required to keep the lawbreakers from being tempted in the first instance.

Hope that clears my point up.