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Sussex
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:33 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Is this debate not somewhat flawed, what do you think they should do when these sort of things happen?

Do you think it right that some LOs/councillors decide on your future without the slightest bit of legal training?

If they ban the driver then he has a right of appeal to the courts. If they suspend him, then by the time it gets to court the suspension will be over.

Yes he can get an injuction, but how many drivers do you know that have any clue about how to get one and/or the money to spend on solicitors etc.

But the point I'm trying to get across is that if they suspend someone for two months for not being 'fit and proper', then how does he suddenly become 'fit and proper' the day after the ban? :?

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Sirius
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:38 pm 
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Sussex
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:55 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Yes , but they have legal departments, I am sure they would check out the options open to them first, after all how many councils would risk a claim for compensation without checking the facts first.

From my experience of council solicitors they struggle to tell the time of day. :shock:

Most smaller councils, and many bigger ones, have lawyers that are the bottom of the pile, and they are not that up on licensing law.

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ALI T
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:01 am 
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Sirius wrote:
"Do you think it right that some LOs/councillors decide on your future without the slightest bit of legal training?"

Yes , but they have legal departments, I am sure they would check out the options open to them first, after all how many councils would risk a claim for compensation without checking the facts first.

I am not really in favour of these sort of things myself, just curious as to what other options are open to LA's to deal with incidents of this nature.

Personally , I would never attend any sort of meeting without some form of legal representation or advice.

I also understand what you are saying about the fit and proper person thing, but as they are making it a condition that he attend the anger managment course, they must feel this has been sufficient in discharging their duty and obligations as Licensing Authority.


yes but as far as the anger managment course goes thier is no provision for it in the civic goverment scotland act ,so the council have no legal right to insist on this.
so i find myself aggreeing with sussex councils and thier legal reps are bottom of the heap.
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TDO
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:36 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Probably not, but how would these things be dealt with otherwise? I would imagine it could be worse in some ways than it already is.


Some kind of tribunal system perhaps?

There must be plenty of other disciplinary procedures in other fields that could be used as a model to deal with the trade.

No system is perfect, but it's all a bit kangaroo-courtish at present, if you ask me.

There should be a bit more consistency as well. While convicted killers are getting licenses, the guy in Dundee had his licenses revoked for misusing a plate that was in the name of someone else. Meanwhile, in Bournemouth and Cheltenham people who did likewise were 'given' the plate, thus a reward of tens of thousands of pounds for doing what the Dundee driver did.

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Sirius
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:15 pm 
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Yes, no system is perfect, but the current one could surely be improved upon.

The system need not necessitate the use of lawyers, and to that extent could be as per the present set up.

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Sirius
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Sussex
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:24 pm 
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I think the HRA was inforce well before we got around to putting it in UK law. It's just that UK folks had to go to the European courts, whereas now they shouldn't have to.

I think. :?

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TDO
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More or less correct, but it wasn't the Human Rights Act that was in force, because it was that Act that incorporated the human rights treaty into UK law - the word Act is the giveaway, because that means it's a piece of UK legislation.

The European Convention on Human Rights was signed by the UK a few decades ago, but until the Human Rights Act it was not part of UK law (and it's not part of the European Union either, so it couldn't have become part of UK law that way).

So previous to the HRA the ECHR could not be applied in the UK courts, so people had to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Any decisions taken by that court could not be relied on in the UK courts, but I think UK governments generally took action based on ECHR decisions, although there was no legal obligation to do so under UK domestic law.

But the Human Rights Act incorporated the ECHR into UK law, so its provisions could be relied upon in the UK courts without having to go to Strasbourg.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:56 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
A Department of Transport circular of 1992 recommended "that local authorities adopt their own guidelines relating to the relevance of convictions for use in determining applications for hackney carriage and private hire vehicle (PHV) drivers' licences." The circular went on to suggest periods of time following disqualification and various other types of convictions that may be appropriate before a licensing authority "entertained an application" for a drivers licence

So no wonder theres confusion up and down the Land?


Yes, I think it's one of these 'local democracy is best, but the problem is local authorities' kind of documents.

Also, I think that to some extent because the DfT knows that the legislation could do with a rewrite then it has to give guidance to LAs to make up for deficiencies in the current system.

(Presumably the circular doesn't apply in Scotland though)

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Sirius wrote:
And how come the Councils are working with a circular from 1992 when the ECHR was brought into force in 1998, are the two compatible?

I do not think there is mention of the ECHR at all, which could perhaps be viewed as strange considering the possible clashes with the ECHR that LA's could bring about by their decision making.


I doubt if there are any fundamental incompatabilities between the two.

But no doubt there has been appropriate guidance issued more recently that has highlighted any possible inconsistencies between the two.

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