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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:30 pm 
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roythebus wrote:
My case was at Ashford Industrial Tribunal, about 3 year ago, Gould-v-Kent Top Travel. I don't have the case details to hand and google can't seem to find the actual case, though it finds the barrister who appeared for KTT (and lost though she doesn't mention that bit).

Thanks for that. If I need it I can just quote the case and let them look for it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:49 pm 
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roythebus wrote:
Providing your driver and escort have been employed (you pay their tax and NI) on that contract,

Are you sure that's a requirement, and self employed contractors and escorts do not come under TUPE? :-k

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
roythebus wrote:
Providing your driver and escort have been employed (you pay their tax and NI) on that contract,

Are you sure that's a requirement, and self employed contractors and escorts do not come under TUPE? :-k

How can an escort pass the "test" to be self employed?
Anyway both the driver and escort are employed, £7.50 per hour, 28 days a year holiday pay and best of all they have me as their boss, well they do for the next 4 weeks.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:49 pm 
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grandad wrote:
How can an escort pass the "test" to be self employed?

I'm not sure there is a test for part time workers that would decide TUPE or not, or self employed or not.

But if the driver pays the escort out of his money, is the driver employing the escort, the office, or is it a payment akin to the money you give for a service i.e. window cleaner?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Just read this.

TUPE applies only to employees. It does not apply to workers or contractors.

In order for an employee to be transferred, they must be employed immediately before the transfer and work in the business or part of the business that is to be transferred.


Therefore it seems it doesn't apply to self-employed, but if a contractor wanted to keep his contracts then they could employ the self-employed for a little while and then de-employ them afterwards.

Of course with agreement of the driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:26 am 
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Correct. TUPE does not cover self-employed people, so the vast majority of taxi drivers are not covered, which is what the county councils play on.

You, as the employer, have specific responsibilities toward your employees which if you don't follow, could end up with YOU being taken to an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal! If the new contractor fails to offer your staff further employment, he could be sued. If he then backs the contract, the TUPE rights remain with your (former) employees.

I done a lot of research on this matter, and there was a good section about what constitutes employment and who is elegible. the example that sticks in my mind was security staff employed at the Olympic site. They would not be liable to transfer under TUPE once the games were over as the contract was only for the duration of the games. I suppose the same could apply to taxi or bus contracts, but that would have to be written into the conditions of employment.

But yes, make your council do the legwork for my case! After all, they're <supposed> to have very good legal departments, let the b,stards work for their excessive fees.

In some ways the requirement of a regular taxi run is different to that of a school bus, inasmuch as a school bus is likely to run for ever, as there will always be 50 kids needing to go from A and B to school X. They will be a different 50 kids every 6 years, but they will usually always be there. A taxi run is a bit more exclusive. you get 2 kids from A, 1 from B, 1 from C and go to school X. After 6 years, the kids at A have left, but kids fro B and C still go for another 2 years, so the route has changed. If the kids at B leave first, the route has not substantially changed, as you still have to go from A to C then school X.

Linky here might be useful: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:47 am 
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so before the end of any contract, form a Ltd company for £45, a director of a ltd company is not the company, they are an employee

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
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The problem there is the contract may be with you as an individual, and not a ltd.co. Contracts are generally not transferrable under a change of entity, though some councils may allow this. As a director of that ltd co you will have to be mainly employed by the ltd co to do that contract, and little else.

This is where Kent Top Travel drivers came unstuck. To avoid TUPE, their bus drivers worked a roster of many routes, so they were never employed to solely work one route. My company only had one school bus route and I drove it most of the time, and importantly on the last week of the service. 8) I was not a director of the company either, otherwise they can refuse your claim on those grounds. Get the mrs to start a company and employ you just to do that contract. There's nothing to stop you doing all your other bookings as a self-employed driver.

But remember, the CC will need to see all the paperwork in the name of the ltd co. I don't think grandad will have a problem with him employees' case.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:51 pm 
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roythebus wrote:
The problem there is the contract may be with you as an individual, and not a ltd.co. Contracts are generally not transferrable under a change of entity, though some councils may allow this. As a director of that ltd co you will have to be mainly employed by the ltd co to do that contract, and little else.


Im sure a bit of Tippex sorts most of it

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:45 pm 
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roythebus wrote:
Having won a TUPE claim against Kent County Council when my tendered school bus route was taken over by their own Kent Top Travel bus company, KCC were of the impression that TUPE "doesn't apply". That was a very expensive mistake on their part.

Providing your driver and escort have been employed (you pay their tax and NI) on that contract, and you say they have solely been employed on that contract and you have documents to prove it, then TUPE will apply providing the new service is not substantially different to the one you provided.

So your service goes from home A, via home B to school X. They alter the run to go via home C slightly off line of route between home A and school X. The fact that the original passenger still go from A and B to X means it's still substantially the same service. TUPE applies.

One of the reasons TUPE was introduced in the UK was due to our friends in the EU sticking their oars in and giving displaced workers RIGHTS (wait for input from TT) after our "friend" Thatcher tried privatising the NHS cleaning services and lowering wages. She made a very, very, expensive mistake when she found out about TUPE and that it DOES apply in the UK.

Whilst it may not be of any comfort to you to lose your contract and staff, your staff should not suffer loss of work, wages or conditions if the contract transfers to another operator. They are obliged to employ them at the same or better rates and conditions.

This is something county councils fail to take into account when they re-let taxi contract, mainly because most taxi drivers are self-employed. The CC must also take into account whether the escort and driver are on minimum wages or above. Again, KCC have found this out the hard was recently when they reminded operators of the need to pay MW to escorts! A number of contracts were handed back and re-tendered because of that.

Edited to add that if the new operator fails to employ your ex-staff, then they are guilty of causing unfair dismissal. It is your duty to inform your staff of the situation and to provide details of wages and T&C of employment to others who may be tendering for the job if requested. The new incumbent may have a nasty surprise in store.


It appears to me that Roy has already cleaned up on this one, wish yer luck Grandad reckon the cheap skate who nicked the contract is about to get his bollox mangled :D

Stating the bleedin obvious had the Staff or even Grandad been a member of UNITE RMT or GMB one phone call would have sorted this =D>

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:48 pm 
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A cheapskate who took one of our school taxi run lasted 4 weeks and backed it once he was threatened with an appearance at the Industrial Tribunal. We didn't get the run back either.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:51 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:

It appears to me that Roy has already cleaned up on this one, wish yer luck Grandad reckon the cheap skate who nicked the contract is about to get his bollox mangled :D

Stating the bleedin obvious had the Staff or even Grandad been a member of UNITE RMT or GMB one phone call would have sorted this =D>


Given its so easy to fold one ltd company and open a new one on a whim i very much doubt that

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:31 pm 
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What would happen to employed office staff if a firm had a bundle of contract work, which they suddenly lost?

That includes the radio staff and the admin/accounts staff. :-k

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:32 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:
roythebus wrote:
Having won a TUPE claim against Kent County Council when my tendered school bus route was taken over by their own Kent Top Travel bus company, KCC were of the impression that TUPE "doesn't apply". That was a very expensive mistake on their part.

Providing your driver and escort have been employed (you pay their tax and NI) on that contract, and you say they have solely been employed on that contract and you have documents to prove it, then TUPE will apply providing the new service is not substantially different to the one you provided.

So your service goes from home A, via home B to school X. They alter the run to go via home C slightly off line of route between home A and school X. The fact that the original passenger still go from A and B to X means it's still substantially the same service. TUPE applies.

One of the reasons TUPE was introduced in the UK was due to our friends in the EU sticking their oars in and giving displaced workers RIGHTS (wait for input from TT) after our "friend" Thatcher tried privatising the NHS cleaning services and lowering wages. She made a very, very, expensive mistake when she found out about TUPE and that it DOES apply in the UK.

Whilst it may not be of any comfort to you to lose your contract and staff, your staff should not suffer loss of work, wages or conditions if the contract transfers to another operator. They are obliged to employ them at the same or better rates and conditions.

This is something county councils fail to take into account when they re-let taxi contract, mainly because most taxi drivers are self-employed. The CC must also take into account whether the escort and driver are on minimum wages or above. Again, KCC have found this out the hard was recently when they reminded operators of the need to pay MW to escorts! A number of contracts were handed back and re-tendered because of that.

Edited to add that if the new operator fails to employ your ex-staff, then they are guilty of causing unfair dismissal. It is your duty to inform your staff of the situation and to provide details of wages and T&C of employment to others who may be tendering for the job if requested. The new incumbent may have a nasty surprise in store.


It appears to me that Roy has already cleaned up on this one, wish yer luck Grandad reckon the cheap skate who nicked the contract is about to get his bollox mangled :D

Stating the bleedin obvious had the Staff or even Grandad been a member of UNITE RMT or GMB one phone call would have sorted this =D>

The tender has not closed yet. I May even win it back.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Part-time workers have the same rights as full time workers under TUPE.

If a one-man operator had a contract and he employed an escort and subsequently lost the contract to another, then TUPE would apply. It's no good though if he's paying the escort "cash in hand"! Someone I employed years back as a bus driver had a mrs who worked in a pub for about 10 years. she was off long-term sick and couldn't claim a penny because she'd been cash in hand for 10 years. She subsequently got landed quite a big tax bill!!


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