Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Thu Apr 30, 2026 9:32 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
The stupid thing is that the plate is kept in the vehicle. It is in the drivers door pocket. I have seen it. I know that he doesn't have an exemption and the County Council conditions state the the vehicle must be identified as being licensed. So why doesn't he just put the plate on the vehicle and be done with it.

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1582
You could get melton to insert conditions to there op licence? It might make things tricky for him until the dereg bill.

In light of recent case law, namely Newcastle City Council v Blue Line, it is proposed that two additional conditions are imposed on all Operators Licenses. The main point of the stated case is that a vehicle licensed in any other licensing area must have a separate telephone number to the Melton District Operators Licence telephone number and must receive a vehicle appertaining to that District. In light of this, the following conditions are proposed to be added to all Operators Licenses:-

• The operator shall maintain an independent operation in Melton by the installation of a dedicated telephone line to the Melton Office with its own unique telephone number.
• The telephone number used must be exclusive to that Operators Licence


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
mancityfan wrote:
You could get melton to insert conditions to there op licence? It might make things tricky for him until the dereg bill.

In light of recent case law, namely Newcastle City Council v Blue Line, it is proposed that two additional conditions are imposed on all Operators Licenses. The main point of the stated case is that a vehicle licensed in any other licensing area must have a separate telephone number to the Melton District Operators Licence telephone number and must receive a vehicle appertaining to that District. In light of this, the following conditions are proposed to be added to all Operators Licenses:-

• The operator shall maintain an independent operation in Melton by the installation of a dedicated telephone line to the Melton Office with its own unique telephone number.
• The telephone number used must be exclusive to that Operators Licence

What if the operator does not have an operators license for Melton? What if all his vehicles that are licensed in Melton are Hacks and all his vehicles plated in Rutland are Private Hire?

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1582
Where the phone is answered is the operating address. You say he's operating Rutland p/hires from melton. Melton should be very interested in this, as his Rutland vehicles are committing and offence,and probably not insured, this should also interest county, who have a duty of care.
From the very first day cross-border issues were tested by local authorities in the Courts, briefly those cases include Dittah -v- Choudhry, Top Cars -v- Windsor, Powers -v- Bromsgrove, East Staffordshire -v- Rendell, Murtagh -v- Bromsgrove, and Shanks (Blue Line) -v- North Tyneside. All these cases have, since the first, followed the same pattern of determination. It may well be that that is because a number of these have been heard by the same Judge; or it may just be that the first decision was of sufficient gravitas to ensure the same result came forward each time these matters came to Court.
1. However, the fact remains that the overall decision of the Courts has been that it is unlawful for a private hire operator to sub-contract work across borders, whatever the circumstances of the initial contract. The initial view held in Choudhry and Dittah, and upheld in all the cases since then, is that once an operator's licence is issued, it is unlawful for that private hire operator to use any other vehicle or driver than those licensed by the same authority; but that once so licensed,the car and driver may be used to pick up and drop off anywhere in the country.
2. Thus in Choudhry and Dittah, the two operators - both licensed by Birmingham - were making use in Birmingham of vehicles licensed by numerous other authorities: Solihull, Wolverhampton etc.
This was found to be unlawful, and this was the fundamental case which said that all the licences -operator, vehicles and drivers - must match. This would permit sub-contracting amongst operators licensed by the same authority as themselves, but not otherwise.
3. The Top Cars case: Mr Mahboob Khan, the proprietor of Top Cars, held an operator licence, vehicle licences and driver licences all issued by Slough Borough Council. Windsor and Maidenhead prosecuted Mr Khan, making a case that as he was not licensed by Windsor and Maidenhead, he was not entitled to take work, or advertise for work, other than in Slough. Again, the courts held that where the phone rang was where the operator licence needed to be issued and, once issued, only Slough drivers and vehicles could be used; it did not matter where the service was advertised or where the work emanated. Therefore Mr Khan was acquitted.
4. In the East Staffordshire case, Mr Rendell was wholly licensed by Derbyshire Dales. His partner Mrs McCartin lived 50 yards away from him, but on the other side of a bridge which marked the boundary between East Staffordshire and Derbyshire Dales. The two partners, McCartin and Rendell, were in the habit in the daily course of their business of transferring their telephone line between each other when they were out on a job. The courts held that transferring the line from Derbyshire Dales to East Staffordshire without having an East Staffordshire operator licence, and consequently vehicles and drivers also licensed by East Staffordshire, was unlawful.
5. In the case of Mr Powers, all his vehicles and his office were licensed in Stratford-upon-Avon, but because this was not a 24-hour operation Mr Powers diverted his telephone number to his house in Bromsgrove, and was therefore making a provision in Bromsgrove, for which he required an operator licence. This worked fine, as long as Mr Powers had some vehicles licensed by Bromsgrove. However, once he had got rid of those licences and concentrated on Stratford alone, the council at Bromsgrove refused to renew his operator licence because under such licence he could only use Bromsgrove licensed vehicles and drivers, and has he had none of those it was inappropriate to give him a licence. His appeal against that decision failed.
6. In Murtagh -v- Bromsgrove Pat Murtagh, who is a senior Magistrate, had a business on the border of Bromsgrove and Birmingham. She was wholly licensed in Bromsgrove, but had nine freephones across the border in Birmingham. Birmingham City Council maintained and insisted that those freephones had to be served by Birmingham licensed drivers and vehicles. Acting under some pressure, Mrs Murtagh acceded to Birmingham's request to obtain an operator licence from Birmingham, and licensed half her vehicles and drivers with Birmingham.
7. Birmingham and Bromsgrove then embarked on a squabble as to who had the right of it, with Mrs Murtagh in effect being treated as pig in the middle. After some ten years Bromsgrove successfully prosecuted Mrs Murtagh, who then promptly moved her entire operation into Birmingham.
8. The Shanks case is perhaps the final straw that breaks the camel's back on cross-border. Mr Shanks, wishing to increase his business, opened an office in Newcastle-upon- Tyne. He held operator licences, vehicle licences and driver licences for both Newcastle and North Tyneside, so that his entire operation, like Mrs Murtagh's, was fully licensed. He even went to the trouble of having business cards made which advised customers that he was fully licensed in both areas, and because of that, customers could expect that from time to time Newcastle or North Tyneside vehicles could be dispatched to fulfil bookings.
9. Not so, said North Tyneside; that is unlawful. As a North Tyneside licensed operator, he can only use North Tyneside vehicles - and this, on trial, was indeed the decision of the Courts. This meant that even a person who operated his own business from two centres could not even sub-contract to himself across a licensing border.
10.In the case of Choudhry and Dittah, these two proprietors passed their own work to various licensed vehicles. In the cases of Khan, Powers, Rendell, Murtagh and Shanks, all defendants were principles in the various prosecutions, but none of those prosecutions involved third parties. In fact, they were passing work to cars on their own fleets, albeit licensed in other areas.
11. At this moment in time, it may well be that they think they are acting lawfully. Unfortunately, as is often the case, it is not until the unforseen happens that the true nature of the risk is explored through the Courts.

I apologise for the length of this report, but I didn't feel that I could do justice to the issues without expanding on them properly. I also know a Law Society expert witness and his opinion, either in evidential or advisory capacity, has been sought on many occasions. So from the very beginning he has been involved in all the cross-border cases I mention, except for the Camberley case. I could get him to be a witness in court for you for a small fee, I believe also that it would not cost the council a lot to bring a case to court, and you do not have to prove your case, it is for them to prove what they are doing is not illegal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1582
Also I have noticed a few councils giving op licenses over the border, not sure if Rutland are one of them!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
mancityfan wrote:
Also I have noticed a few councils giving op licenses over the border, not sure if Rutland are one of them!

It is hard to say. I have rang them and asked this question and they say that the operator must have an address within Rutland. However I have been told that for a few bob there is a takeaway shop that will let anyone use their address for the operators license. There are at least 3 people in Melton with operators licenses issued by Rutland.

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57350
Location: 1066 Country
This is the mess that will soon be made a legal mess.

I suppose there is some logic in making an illegal activity legal, but not sure any of the good guys gain by it.

But doing it piecemeal makes the mess a bigger one.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
Sussex wrote:
This is the mess that will soon be made a legal mess.

I suppose there is some logic in making an illegal activity legal, but not sure any of the good guys gain by it.

But doing it piecemeal makes the mess a bigger one.

It is not the fact that he is licensing in Rutland that is bothering me. It is the fact that he has not put the plate on the vehicle even though he knows that he should and he has the plate in the vehicle, It is as though he wants someone to try and use enforcement. Interestingly, the Safer Transport Team from County Hall were out in Melton Yesterday. They were even at the school where he drops off. I wonder if they said anything to him?

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 2712
Hopefully they will report the matter to his own LA and the police. We see enough on here in the "news" section about "illegal cabbie rapes grandmother" type stories with warnings about not getting into cars that do not carry the required plates..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 2712
The lengthy reply by Mancityfan is interesting, but I would suggest some of the case law ha been a the LC says, overtaken by technology. In my area many small independent operators both HC and PH move address frequently and don't have a land line number, only a mobile, so how doe anyone know where they are taking the call?

All our calls are taken from my wife's mobile as the landline is on permanent divert to her. but at least we have a land line!

However, I don't see a law exempting the alleged offender driving round not displaying his plates.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
roythebus wrote:
I don't see a law exempting the alleged offender driving round not displaying his plates.

But who should be prosecuting? If our enforcement team stop him, he will just show them the plate and tell them it is nothing to do with them because he is licensed by Rutland. So our Council will report the matter to Rutland, who we all know, don't do enforcement.

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:17 pm
Posts: 2712
But the police can prosecute, or bring a private prosecution. Bet your boots if one of the children gets "into trouble" with this driver "doing things" it'll make the headlines.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1582
Yes the law is out of date, but it is the law at the moment, but as Sussex states by the end of the year it will change, if I were grandad I would report the vehicle to the police, tell them there's an illegal car picking up at school ect, just give them the reg and they will be looking for him, then get all your drivers to do the same, every time you see him out, the police will soon get fed up with all the calls, he will eventually get fed up with being pulled over, let's hope he's legal, if the police respond you can then inform them of all the offences he's committing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1582
roythebus wrote:
The lengthy reply by Mancityfan is interesting, but I would suggest some of the case law ha been a the LC says, overtaken by technology. In my area many small independent operators both HC and PH move address frequently and don't have a land line number, only a mobile, so how doe anyone know where they are taking the call?

All our calls are taken from my wife's mobile as the landline is on permanent divert to her. but at least we have a land line!

However, I don't see a law exempting the alleged offender driving round not displaying his plates.


Well I know what your saying but you are currently breaking the law, by using a mobile, what if you answer it in another district, you will need a new set of licenses, and by taking the booking illegally you probably not insured either. The best way I have come up with to get round the law is to have a hackney licence, and advertise that number, you can then divert and answer anywhere as you don't need an op licence, you can pass work on to all and sundry, even your own company in a different name, area ect.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57350
Location: 1066 Country
grandad wrote:
It is not the fact that he is licensing in Rutland that is bothering me. It is the fact that he has not put the plate on the vehicle even though he knows that he should and he has the plate in the vehicle,

Sorry I got a bit waylaid, but there isn't a necessity to display the plate.

A few of my mates run legal PH without displaying their plates.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 106 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group