Taxi Driver Online

None.

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IDFIMH

It could very well be an issue because the fare charged includes VAT for a VAT registered entity.

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Grandad,

There's several issues raised by this ruling.

The first is that Uber has so much control over the drivers that they are undeniably employed; the only control drivers have is when they work. Presumably the drivers have their own cars, but whose p/h licence do they work under? If it is Uber, then they can't work for anyone else, period. Therefore they cannot be self-employed.

As for minimum wage, what's to stop the imposition of zero hours contracts for such drivers? What could happen is that the driver is on minimum wage, zero hours. You get a minimum fare to the punter of £whatever it is, plus Uber's 25%, plus the NI/tax/holiday pay bit plus VAT (how do they get away with that at the moment?). One minimum fare an hour and the driver gets booked off. Price to the punter goes up, so the days of cheap fares may well be over. The race to the bottom may be off at long last.

There's been some discussion in the bus trade press about what is and isn't a self-employed bus or coach driver. The company I now work for has me on a zero hours contract, it suits me, if I don't want to work then I simply say I'm not available. No hard feelings. I get holiday pay on top of the wage. the company, once having established that I'm available then tell me where to go from and to, what times, and provide me with a fully licenced, taxed and insured £280,000 Volvo to drive a round in. I am under their instruction at all times. the job may be an hour, it may be up to 14 hours. If they were to hire me in as an outside operator which does happen from time to time using my vintage bus, then I am supplying a fully licenced,taxed and insured old bus, I am providing the means to earn the money. Their contract with me is to go from A to B, regardless of hours. There's no holiday pay from the operator, I don't get paid for statutory breaks, I have to pay my own tax.

Several bus operators have recently been hit with rather large bills from HMRC for employing "self-employed" drivers. There's a relatively small force of free-lance drivers whose future and status is now in doubt because of this.

As for the VAT element, I don't know how Uber get away with that. I doubt many genuine hacks or one-man p/h will turn over enough to have to be registered. quite how the meter could cope with a VAT element of the fare is another problem that will need addressing for the likes of big operators.

For Uber, you can insert whatever name, Hermes/Deliveroo/A2B Cabs...anyone who "employs" self-employed staff!

I don't see that someone running a car on a split bag like I know some London cabbies do will be affected. One drivers uses the cab during the day, the other uses it at night. The fact the cab is shared won't really affect the driver's ability to choose where and when he works.

Maybe the other bright side of the Uber case is that it will force the cheap end of the private hire trade off the road and improve standards.

I am sure that costs will be an issue, should the tribunal ruling be upheld after the inevitable appeals process runs its course. Ever since I joined the TAXI industry in 1985, the "self-employed" status of drivers who have no financial interest in the running of the company be that a one vehicle operator, or the multi vehicle operator, has raised eyebrows everywhere.

If things remain as they are, life caries on as before. Is this now though unlikely?

If employment in the trade changes to drivers being fully employed, the increased costs for an operator will increase to such an extent as to making it unviable. A one man band paying a driver a share of the takings on a percentage basis, on a no work no pay policy, changing to a fully employed status and paying NIC contributions, pension and holiday pay, etc, will surely find that employing a driver will be economically unviable.

How will any operator, be it a one man band or an app based company be able to employ a driver on £10 per hour plus holiday pay and so on?

I see this as being a case of take care what you wish for, or your wishes may come true.

Without a whiff of smugness, I am glad to be a one man band, and semi retired.

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Former taxi driver

I think it is done as an agent. The company collects the money on behalf of the driver who isn't earning enough to be VAT registered so there is no VAT due at this point. The company then pay the driver what he is due. Now the company supplying the work, in this case UBER, because of the commission that they receive from the drivers will put them over the VAT threshold should be registered for VAT in the Country that they work from (Holland). Now they will have to account for VAT on all the commission that they receive. How much they pay will depend on the deal that they have struck with the Dutch authorities.
Well it is something like that.

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Grandad,

If i have read it correctly then all Uber need to do if they are in the clear over VAT is get their "partners" to each apply individually for an operators license and lo and behold they will be self employed as they will have become a separate business entity "buying" their work from the wholesaler "uber" or another source

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lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

Always referred to the definition of self employed given by HMRC.

"You’re probably self-employed if you:

run your business for yourself and take responsibility for its success or failure
have several customers at the same time
can decide how, where and when you do your work
can hire other people at your own expense to help you or to do the work for you
provide the main items of equipment to do your work
are responsible for finishing any unsatisfactory work in your own time
charge an agreed fixed price for your work
sell goods or services to make a profit (including through websites or apps)
Many of these also apply if you own a limited company but you’re not classed as self-employed by HMRC. Instead you’re both an owner and employee of your company."

I am pretty sure at one time there was an additional statement that if you answered no to any of these conditions then you were not self employed.
This seems to have been dropped although it may still be their stance.

Clearly very few PH and some taxi drivers would be 'self employed' and the lack of enforcement has allowed many fools and misfortunates to be exploited.

As is the way of the world greed brings forth one who took the exploitation to far.

Is it a game changer?
Will the many many firms who have made much from exploitation of the fools and misfortunates and at the expense of those who acted properly now face their comeuppance?
Will those who are in the clear now cash in on the lack of supply ?

If so then they might all someday raise a glass of their most extravagant favourite tipple to the onetime emergence of a Californian company with a Dutch trading address.

All drivers have their own ph licence, I think you mean operator licence. Drivers can work for as many operators as they want, but, a lot of operators put pressure on drivers not to do so. You may see operators now encouraging drivers to work with somebody else as well

I think with Uber their downfall was, in an effort to have a uniform type of service, they put too many conditions on the drivers. They also put it in writing and spoke about it a lot, something none of the traditional operators do with perhaps the exception of Addison Lee.

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Note to self: Just because it pops into my head does NOT mean it should come out of my mouth!!

why is this uber's downfall it was a test case by 2 drivers unless all the rest also take them to tribunal it is merely symbolic

All that will happen is uber will make a couple of changes to their partner T & C's and lo and behold problem fixed until the next driver takes them to tribunal

This is NOT the government changing the law

Uber have merely lost a skirmish not the war

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lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

It's their business model that will cause them panic stations, and all those numpties that have invested billions will at some time want a return, and I'm not sure they will get one.

The two were test cases, if the decision stays throughout the court process then it will apply to all Uber drivers, and most other so-called self employed drivers that work with a licensed operator.

As I've said before I don't think Uber were the best targets as they allow the drivers to work elsewhere, whereas many more ops don't allow such freedom.

When you read the judgement, and I've nearly finished it, you will see that the definition of a worker points to most of the so-called self-employed drivers that are currently working in the trade.

And the next step will be hackney jockeys, cos those folks are even more 'workers' than self-employed owner/drivers.

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IDFIMH

The Hermes couriers might lead to the law being changed.

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IDFIMH

It is the policy of most councils and the government to maintain a competitive taxi market in order to keep fares down. No government in their right mind would allow this to change as the result could be 100000 extra on the dole and lots of unhappy supporters cross that their taxis to and from Restaurants,functions and the airports are costing a lot more. Plus there are a lot of people who are becoming wealthy as a result with a few thousand spare in the bank available to donate to party funds in order to persuade the powers that be that it is in their interests not to change things

Nothing talks louder to a politician than money and those with the most to lose have the deepest pockets !

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lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

When was this offer of involvement to the NTA made to represent private hire drivers.I cannot remember being told about this ever.

The NTA weren't offered, and at that time couldn't accept PH as members anyway.

Of course it can now.

Irrespective, the GMB need congratulated for their efforts of bringing PH operators to book, the question is how their efforts will affect the entire relationship between PH operator and driver in the long term - that is now a can of worms.

Because if a driver is truly self employed, then when he switches on his radio or phone and accepts work from an operator - that same operator cannot then threaten to remove the radio or phone, if the driver also works for another operator - like what happened in Newcastle when Uber started.

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Employment Law is a huge earner for lawyers, I think you'll find they'll act regardless of any interference or/and pressure from government, a precedent has been set, sit back and watch the number of claims rocket

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Alway's been about Tightening the Grip!