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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:57 pm 
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Skull wrote:
diesel wrote:
saltieri is probaly afraid of getting into bed with you (now that is scary) and taking it on (collectively) to the next level of court proceedings as if it goes tits up he could be left with a large legal bill.if the LA wins and is awarded costs he has the assets. do you have as much to lose?


You are making a lot of assumptions and talking [edited by admin] as usual.


:roll:
maybes aye maybe no 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm 
JD wrote:
Skull wrote:

Mr Salteri is [edited by admin] himself about the prospect of being forced to the forefront in this matter

It seems offers are on the table for this case to go no further.

I'll let you guess from who and why?

Before anyone thinks I've chucked in the towel, forget it, you'll be sorely disappointed.


As it stands now Mr Salteri has his license. The only hurdle in his way is the CEC appeal to the Sheriff Principal, If CEC lose that then CEC might go all the way to the Inner House of the Court of Session. Mr Salteri whether he likes it or not is in the limelight. If the case goes all the way to the higher court god knows what he will do but if he doesn't contest the appeal and he loses it by forfeit then he only has himself to blame.

Mr Salteri may get lucky if other applicants contest the extension of time applications by CEC and win. The Sheriff Principal would no doubt find it hard to overturn two or more decisions by individual Sheriffs. I think CEC might then think twice about appealing to the higher court although they are probably obstinate enough to do that.

Regards

JD


As an aside, can anyone explain why the council is going to all this bother over the issuing of licences?

I mean, what do they get out of it, other tham of course protecting a vested interest?

Surely it is in their public interest to provide the best possible taxi service for local communities?

Doesn't it seem an inordinate palaver to take their "case" to ever higher courts?

:?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:09 am 
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Unless of course the Council has a separate agenda to protect and increase the Ph fleet owner’s profits by expanding the Ph in Edinburgh. While providing an outlet for the unemployed into the grey market. Not forgetting the huge increase of immigrants or should I say cheap labour flooding into the country so fast the government lack the resources to integrate them into the local communities.


The Ph is going to expand so fast over the next few years it will almost nock your eyes out. 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:33 am 
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Skull wrote:
Have a wee look seems like sheriff Liddle agrees with us, nae luck RCF/RCFF.

Can someone find Sheriff Liddle's decision. This is obviously the C.E.C appeal, I didn't have the time to look it up and post it on here.


All that is stated in the judgement is this.

The sheriff having heard the grounds of the application from City of Edinburgh Council, refuses the said application.

The judgement doesn't go into the detail of the grounds of refusal. Considering only one party turned up that is understandable.

I Hope that helps, it might save you time running around looking for something that might not be available.

If you need confirmation of what was said in the judgement the civil department at the courthouse will tell you.

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:34 pm 
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JD wrote:
Skull wrote:
Have a wee look seems like sheriff Liddle agrees with us, nae luck RCF/RCFF.

Can someone find Sheriff Liddle's decision. This is obviously the C.E.C appeal, I didn't have the time to look it up and post it on here.


All that is stated in the judgement is this.

The sheriff having heard the grounds of the application from City of Edinburgh Council, refuses the said application.

The judgement doesn't go into the detail of the grounds of refusal. Considering only one party turned up that is understandable.

I Hope that helps, it might save you time running around looking for something that might not be available.

If you need confirmation of what was said in the judgement the civil department at the courthouse will tell you.

Regards

JD



I phoned up the court and they wouldn't give me any details of what was said. All she said was that the full decision will become available after the appeal case is heard.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:18 pm 
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There is no written decision at the moment.

if you look at the councils appeal you see it finishes by saying "and the Applicant requests the Sheriff to write a note ", this is the council formally requesting that the Sherrif give a written explanation of his decision.

I guess this will be made available prior to any appeal beign heard, as it will form the basis from which the arguments stem.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:58 pm 
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jasbar wrote:
As an aside, can anyone explain why the council is going to all this bother over the issuing of licences?

I mean, what do they get out of it, other tham of course protecting a vested interest?

Surely it is in their public interest to provide the best possible taxi service for local communities?



I think there are a number of reasons, for example:

- They don't have a clue about the market and believe the rubbish spouted by the doom-mongers;
- They know that it would cause a lot of flack from the trade, and basically they don't want the bad publicity, because they're politicians;
- In particular, they created the market in plates, so if they pool the rug out then they'll be seen to have U-turned, which politicians don't like to do;
- As you say, there's a vested interest group, and they are closest to the levers of power. One or two of the reports to the DfT have basically said that they don't want to upset the taxi trade by derestricting, which is a bad enough reason not to do things as it is, but that councils are naive enough to say these things publicly speaks volumes.

But in general it just comes back to our good old friend regulatory capture. In his Dublin taxi study a few years back Dr John Fingleton said:

For the taxi market, the regulator might need to have information about costs in order to regulate price or entry. If the suppliers of taxi services convinced the regulator that costs were higher than they really were, then the regulator might implement a higher fare structure, giving the industry some monopoly profit or rent. Capture could also occur with regard to entry, where the interest of the industry to restrict entry would conflict with the consumer interest in having free entry.

The possibility of regulatory capture means that regulation may not improve on the free market. This does not mean there should be no regulation. Rather, regulation should only be used where strictly necessary and, in such cases, the institutions of regulation should be designed so as to minimise the possibility of capture. Several features of the institution would reduce the possibility of capture. First, the regulator should be given a clear objective: for example, to regulate price in the interests of consumers. Second, the process of regulation should be completely transparent. Thus any arguments presented to the regulator by the industry should be public, and any decisions of the regulator should be accompanied by published reasoning that explains how the decisions relate to the stated objectives.

A third issue that has implications for the political independence of the regulator is the political economy of regulation. Consider a regulatory measure that results in less profits for an industry but gains for consumers that, on aggregate, outweigh the losses to industry. An example might be a reduction in local telephone charges. Such a measure would be in the common good and so it is desirable that it be undertaken. However, if market variables are determined by the strength of political or lobbying power, then it is unlikely that the correct levels will be chosen. This is because the industry always consists of a small, focused and well-organised group, whereas the consumers who benefit are typically a large and diffuse group. Each firm in the industry has a lot to loose from tighter regulation and will exert great effort against the regulation. Each consumer, by comparison, has only a small gain and, because consumers are less organised, the greater aggregate gain of consumers will not be reflected in any lobbying. Moreover, such lobbying is socially wasteful, and a system of regulation that encourages it would compound the problems.


And it's good to see that Dr Fingleton is now safely ensconced as CE at the OFT, which augurs well for when they come to re-examine taxi numbers in a couple of years:

Link to OFT

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:58 pm 
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I suppose the question is what happens to all the other applications in the event the Sheriff Liddles decision is upheld. Some applicants have been refused on the back of Jacob’s others have taken their money back and withdrawn, some applications are frozen and awaiting an extension period to be granted and all are going over the statutory six month decision making period.

This is a shambles and from what I am hearing the council are falling apart at the seams. :shock:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:58 pm 
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I'm enjoying their pain though, I would have loved to have seen their faces when Sheriff Liddle blew them out of court.

I Bet Bob Millar (council solicitor) almost hit the floor.

Poetic justice perhaps bearing in mind the [edited by admin] lied through their teeth when we were in court. :evil:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:13 pm 
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yup Mr Fingleton f ...... up Dublin, and now you can start worshipping him here in your quest for free plates.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:21 pm 
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187ums wrote:
yup Mr Fingleton f ...... up Dublin, and now you can start worshipping him here in your quest for free plates.

Did he really?

I thought it was the government and the courts that, in your view, messed up Dublin.

Strange that the only people moaning about Dublin now are plate-holders in restricted areas on the main land. :-$

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:28 pm 
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187ums wrote:
yup Mr Fingleton f ...... up Dublin, and now you can start worshipping him here in your quest for free plates.


Funny, I was just reading an old Dublin article. Wasn't this what was f.... up?

Drivers who didn't have a licence, so-called "cosies", were forced to pay £250 a week for the right to work. They had to pay that money to the licence owner, before earning a penny for themselves. To own a licence was to be a little baron, with the right to extract money from hard-working cosies and to harass [PH] drivers. Some people owned several licences. In order to maintain this racket, the public had to be deprived of the transport we required, forcing us to queue for hours or increasingly simply to stay home rather than put ourselves through the misery of finding a way out of the city centre.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:54 am 
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what about the after effects? i mean if this guy was as clued up as you make it out to be, why did he not anticipate them.

its easy to blame the government and everyone else, but ultimatley this guy gave them the advice and they followed it like lemmings


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:24 am 
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187ums wrote:
its easy to blame the government and everyone else, but ultimatley this guy gave them the advice and they followed it like lemmings

Well let's hope this gov follow him like lemmings.

But I go back to my point, why is it that the only people belly-aching over Dublin are taxi plate-holders in restricted areas on the main land? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:04 pm 
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187ums wrote:
what about the after effects? i mean if this guy was as clued up as you make it out to be, why did he not anticipate them.

its easy to blame the government and everyone else, but ultimatley this guy gave them the advice and they followed it like lemmings


No, the government didn't follow his advice, they resisted it and it was a court case that finally decided these things.

If you read Dr F's Dublin report you'll see stuff about quality control and the like.

The problem was that the govt resisted it, then the courts opened the floodgates, and any (exaggerated) problems that arose could have been avoided if the Govt had followed his advice.

Then we had the taxi regulator, which obviously took years to implement and will take years to take proper effect.

So if the govt had followed Dr Fs advice in the round the problems wouldn't have arisen, it's not the other way round as you try to depict it.

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