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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:25 pm 
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This link from Taxi Point website gives the view of the QC that represented the B&H operators at the recent panel hearing.

https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/single-pos ... -Explained

A lot of it is basic stuff that we have all heard time and time again, but he ends with a section of the recent Knowsley case which does point to way the likes of Nottingham and B&H could insist on local cars only, if they can show a court that it is necessary.

Erosion of localism: licence conditions

The Courts have said that “the hallmark of the licensing regulatory regime is localism”[1], and that “that the authorities responsible for granting licences should have the authority to exercise full control” over “all vehicles and drivers being operated … within its area.” [2]

In The Queen on the application of Delta Merseyside Limited and Uber Britannia Limited v Knowsley BC [2018] EWHC 757, Kerr said –

“I refrain from expressing any view on the point, but I am fortified in my conclusion in this case by the consideration that, in principle, a condition on a licence could be imposed which, if otherwise lawful, would require a fit and proper person who is a licence holder to abide by whatever restrictions are contained within a condition that are considered reasonably necessary to meet any perceived erosion of localism in the governance of PHV licensing.”

Conclusions

Although correction of the abuses of what may lawfully be done by way of cross border hiring may, as has frequently been said, require national legislative change, it is only necessary to enforce existing law to address some of the widespread concerns about unlawful cross border operations and the erosion of localism by minicab firms and their drivers.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 pm 
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As I found out with Shepway district Council when I took them on and won on a vehicle age case, they caved in when they had a more savvy LO join them.

Council solicitors are council solicitors because generally they aren't good enough to work in the private sector. Much the same for the legal "advisors" in the DafT who wrongly advised on the s19 CT permits for over 20 years.

If Nottingham try to impose this ban, if anyone takes it to appeal they are almost 1005 guaranteed a win. As I've said here and elsewhere, the country needs a national set of licencing laws like the bus and lorry industries have. There was a missed opportunity to do this when the deregulation bill went through. Hence the currect cock-up.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Quote:
Erosion of localism: licence conditions

The Courts have said that “the hallmark of the licensing regulatory regime is localism”[1], and that “that the authorities responsible for granting licences should have the authority to exercise full control” over “all vehicles and drivers being operated … within its area.” [2]


Try telling that to Wolverhampton though, who clearly think their remit is to erode localism. [-X


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:30 am 
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Nottingham Council are stating that any vehicle licensed outside their borough will be prosecuted for ''Plying for Hire''
How is this different to Reading Council prosecuting Uber drivers who were hanging around their borough ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:02 am 
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cheshirebest wrote:
Nottingham Council are stating that any vehicle licensed outside their borough will be prosecuted for ''Plying for Hire''
How is this different to Reading Council prosecuting Uber drivers who were hanging around their borough ?

Every weekend I have cars picking up fares in Nottingham. Are Nottingham going to prosecute me? All the jobs are pre booked and on our system.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:30 am 
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grandad wrote:
cheshirebest wrote:
Nottingham Council are stating that any vehicle licensed outside their borough will be prosecuted for ''Plying for Hire''
How is this different to Reading Council prosecuting Uber drivers who were hanging around their borough ?

Every weekend I have cars picking up fares in Nottingham. Are Nottingham going to prosecute me? All the jobs are pre booked and on our system.


The difference is that plying for hire in an area where your not licensed to do so in is nothing like collecting or dropping off clients that booked you through your own area where you hold a license to do so.

Had you an been an out of area Hack or PH scavenging vulture like in some other Licensed area to your own then you deserve being booted out of their or charged for illegal Plying for Hire.

But if your work is more transient in nature and your requirement is a legal booking made through your own licensed area then anywhere in Britain or beyond is fair game.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:40 am 
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Quote:
Every weekend I have cars picking up fares in Nottingham. Are Nottingham going to prosecute me? All the jobs are pre booked and on our system.


Any jobs pre booked anywhere are legal and nobody wishes to stop that.
In Manchester 2 weeks back the council carried out one of their rare operations and within a short time found 5 ph plying for hire.Their ''operators'' were not even aware that the vehicles were out at the time so it is quite easy to prove ''Plying for Hire''
Any weekend in Manchester is a free for all....we have all sorts from over 50 councils sitting around without any booking and taking fares whereby the users are uninsured.
We even have pirates waiting at T1 Departures at the Airport on a daily basis....what possible bookings can they have on a daily basis ?
That will soon change as the Airport are bringing in a Drop-off charge...so they will have to pay just for entering the drop off area...before being allowed to exit the Airport.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:02 pm 
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cheshirebest wrote:
Nottingham Council are stating that any vehicle licensed outside their borough will be prosecuted for ''Plying for Hire''
How is this different to Reading Council prosecuting Uber drivers who were hanging around their borough ?

Not sure it is, but it still has to be tested by the higher courts.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:03 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Every weekend I have cars picking up fares in Nottingham. Are Nottingham going to prosecute me? All the jobs are pre booked and on our system.

The difference is, compared with the apps companies, that your cars will not be viewed on a app as available for immediate hire.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Cross Border Hiring By Gerald Gouriet QC

Summary: cross border hiring & localism
“Cross border hiring” is a portmanteau expression covering a miscellany of different activities, some of which are lawfully undertaken, others unlawfully. There is no case law to the general effect that cross border hiring of PHV drivers is per se lawful; and PHV licences may be conditioned so as to prevent cross border hiring from undermining local licensing control.
The ‘Right to Roam’
The licensing requirements of PHV drivers and their vehicles, and the exemptions therefrom, are different from those made of PHV operators. The so-called ‘right to roam’ (insofar as it is a right) applies to PHV drivers and vehicles – not operators.
PHV drivers and vehicles
Outside Greater London the owner of a vehicle may not use it as a private hire vehicle in a controlled district unless the vehicle is licensed under section 48 LGMPA 1976: section 46(1)(a). Nor may the vehicle be driven otherwise than by someone licensed under section 51: section 46(1)(b). It is also an offence for the owner of a vehicle to employ as a driver someone who is not so licensed: 46(1)(c).
No offence under sections 46(1)(a), (b) or (c) is committed in respect of the use of a vehicle in controlled district A if a driver’s licence and a vehicle licence issued in controlled district B are in force: section 75(2). All three licences, however, (operator’s, driver’s and vehicle), must be issued by the same authority: Dittah v Birmingham City Council [1993] RTR 356.
The so-called “right to roam” of PHV drivers and vehicles derives from section 75(2). The right is not unqualified: PHV drivers and vehicles may not ply for hire, and may only fulfil a booking accepted by an operator licensed by the same authority as licensed them: Dittah.
PHV operators
Section 80(1) LGMPA 1976 provides:
“operate” means in the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle.
An operator may only make provision for the invitation or acceptance of PHV bookings in the controlled district in which he is licensed: LGMPA section 46(1)(d), applying section 80, subsections (1) & (2).
Section 75 of the LGMPA 1976 does not provide an exemption for operators (from section 46(1)(d)), equivalent to that which it provides for drivers and vehicles (from sections 46(1)(a), (b) & (c)). Thus, whilst drivers and vehicles may lawfully undertake journeys “which ultimately have no connection with the area in which they are licensed” (per Latham LJ in Shanks v North Tyneside BC [2001] LLR 706), lawful provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings is anchored to the controlled district in which the operator is licensed.
Unlawful provision for invitation of bookings by PHV drivers
Whether or not provision has been made in breach of section 46(1)(d) is a question of fact. The following guidance emerges from the cases –
“It is simply a question of asking, in common sense terms, whether there has been provision made in the controlled district for invitation or acceptance of bookings”: Kingston Upon Hull City Council v Wilson(1995) WL 1082181, per Buxton J.
“There could well be provision for invitation of bookings in one place and for acceptance in another”: East Staffordshire BC v Rendell (1995) WL 1084118, per Simon Brown LJ.
“As the authorities clearly show, the main question is not where the act of accepting any particular booking or bookings take place, but where the provision is made”: idem
“The determining factor is not whether any individual booking was accepted, let alone where it was accepted, but whether the person accused has in the area in question made provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings in general”: Windsor and Maidenhead v Khan [1994] RTR 87, per McCullough J.
If a PHV operator makes arrangements for drivers in his fleet to go to remote areas (i.e. other than the area of the authority that licensed the operator/drivers/vehicles) it may well be that, on the facts of a particular case, he is unlawfully making provision for the invitation of PHV bookings. If he has organised dedicated parking areas and pick up points for his drivers, and the means to let the public know they are waiting there and available for hire, it may be difficult to conclude otherwise.
Undermining local licensing control: revocation or refusal to renew licence
Section 62(1) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 gives a licensing authority power to refuse to renew (or revoke) an operator’s licence on the grounds that –
(a) he has committed an offence under the 1976 Act (or an immigration offence);
(b) he is otherwise not fit and proper to hold the licence;
(c) there is a material change of circumstances: or
(d) any other reasonable cause.
Even in circumstances that are otherwise lawful, a PHV operator who knowingly sends drivers in his fleet to work (exclusively or predominantly) in remote areas where they are not licensed, is vulnerable to having his operator’s licence revoked or refused renewal under section 62(1)(d) of the 1976 Act on the ground that he undermines local licensing control. The threat to public safety (let alone the affront to local control) in the growing use of drivers who ‘shop’ to be licensed by authorities that demand only the lowest standards, so that they can work in an area where standards are higher but licences more difficult to obtain, is ample demonstration of “reasonable cause”. At least one PHV operator has been known to steer potential drivers to licensing authorities with minimal licensing criteria and low licensing fees.
Erosion of localism: licence conditions
The Courts have said that “the hallmark of the licensing regulatory regime is localism”[1], and that “that the authorities responsible for granting licences should have the authority to exercise full control” over “all vehicles and drivers being operated … within its area.” [2]
In The Queen on the application of Delta Merseyside Limited and Uber Britannia Limited v Knowsley BC [2018] EWHC 757, Kerr J said –
“I refrain from expressing any view on the point, but I am fortified in my conclusion in this case by the consideration that, in principle, a condition on a licence could be imposed which, if otherwise lawful, would require a fit and proper person who is a licence holder to abide by whatever restrictions are contained within a condition that are considered reasonably necessary to meet any perceived erosion of localism in the governance of PHV licensing.”
Conclusions
Although correction of the abuses of what may lawfully be done by way of cross border hiring may, as has frequently been said, require national legislative change, it is only necessary to enforce existing law to address some of the widespread concerns about unlawful cross border operations and the erosion of localism by some minicab firms and their drivers.

Gerald Gouriet QC


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:03 pm 
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In short the fella is saying that we don't necessarily need new laws.

Just use existing ones a bit more wisely.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
In short the fella is saying that we don't necessarily need new laws.

Just use existing ones a bit more wisely.


Pretty much, it’s probably what Nottingham are going to do, put conditions on there Operators licence, which he seems to say is the easier way to stop them using vehicles from other areas.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:06 pm 
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mancityfan wrote:
Sussex wrote:
In short the fella is saying that we don't necessarily need new laws.

Just use existing ones a bit more wisely.


Pretty much, it’s probably what Nottingham are going to do, put conditions on there Operators licence, which he seems to say is the easier way to stop them using vehicles from other areas.

Be interesting to see if someone tries to get around that with out of town hackneys.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:08 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
Not so sure about that - Parliament is sovereign, so when there's a clear conflict between an Act of Parliament and something local, then the national legislation takes precedence. In this case the intention of the legislators seems fairly straightforward, and the legislation unambiguous - there's no doubt that Parliament wanted operators to be able to use non-local vehicles if the legislative provisions were met.
-----------------------------------------------
Don't think the other duties of councils to promote safety are really relevant if the Act of Parliament is clear and unambiguous - again, these are not directly relevant to the intention of Parliament, which was to enable cross-border working.
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Of course it's a mess, but the mess can only be cleared up by Parliament - local authorities can't effectively overturn the clear will of the legislators, however desirable that many seem.

But, in the final analysis, Parliament may have enacted extremely bad law, but only Parliament can overturn it.


District Judge Szagun wrote:
62. The licensing "triple lock" and "right to roam" are clearly embodied within this statutory regime and endorsed by the case law as set out above. The spirit of this legislative framework as further deregulated in 2015 supports an open market.

63. Any changes to this are a matter for parliament.

[-(


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 4:30 pm 
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Seven years ago, the press wrote:
Council plans to get tougher on taxi firms hiring drivers with licences from outside the city

Council bosses are looking at carrying out a major review which could see every Nottingham taxi operator only using city council licensed drivers. Richard Antcliff, head of licensing at Nottingham City Council, said private hire companies are recruiting drivers with licences from as far away as Wolverhampton.

Can't be bothered wading through this thread again, but think I'm worthy of at least a [-(

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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