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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 pm
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Some late night weekend customers have always tried it on for the last 30yrs 'wannabehack,not worth the risk either insurance wise or council wise.only a very few drivers have done that and it's usually newbies egged on by drunk students!.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:32 pm 
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rayggb wrote:
No you are wrong heathcote, as stated above you can carry more if it's S+D+P . I have it in writing (email ).


If your vehicle is licenced as a hackney or private hire, then it and you are governed by that licence. If your plate says 5, then 5 people are all you are allowed to carry. For you to carry more people you will have to surrender your vehicle licence.
However in Sefton we have TX1s, 2s, and 4s that have six seats, the sixth seat being a pulldown seat by the driver. The vehicle is still only licenced to carry 5. We have certain jobs that are loading and carrying a wheelchair user, plus 2 disabled people, and 2 carers.We can only fit 4 people and the wheelchair in the back, and the fifth person sits next to the driver, 5 passengers in all. We cannot carry 6 people at any time.

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Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:09 pm 
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grandad wrote:
rayggb wrote:
he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.

Is that the correct name for the group? If it is, I haven't heard of them.



The group is NALEO and I am inclined to think the NALEO Chairman would not put something on paper instructing a proprietor that he can carry more passengers than licensed for.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:34 pm 
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Well if anybody would like to tell me how to post the email on to this forum (not techy) then I will gladly do so,so long as I'm not breaking any data legislation.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:08 pm 
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rayggb wrote:
Well if anybody would like to tell me how to post the email on to this forum (not techy) then I will gladly do so,so long as I'm not breaking any data legislation.
Ask your NALEO man if you can post it. Also ask him if this is his opinion or is there case law to back it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:11 pm 
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Ok I will grandad ,I'll email him Monday.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:05 pm 
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rayggb wrote:
Well if anybody would like to tell me how to post the email on to this forum (not techy) then I will gladly do so,so long as I'm not breaking any data legislation.

Got to be careful with personal emails etc.

Maybe you could just repeat the basis behind the view i.e. legal section or guidance.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:17 pm 
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heathcote wrote:
grandad wrote:
rayggb wrote:
he is also the vice chairman of the national association of licensing officers btw.

Is that the correct name for the group? If it is, I haven't heard of them.



The group is NALEO and I am inclined to think the NALEO Chairman would not put something on paper instructing a proprietor that he can carry more passengers than licensed for.


https://www.naleo.org.uk/about-us/commi ... ct-details

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Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:35 pm 
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For what it's worth, found that Aberdeen paper from 2005 which discussed the practice of spouses using taxis and PHVs (or PHCs in Scotland, strictly speaking, since the legislation refers to a private hire *car*). Couldn't copy the text from the original document (seems to be copy-protected in some way), so this is just the most relevant extracts, because I couldn't be bothered typing the whole lot out (in fact if I'd just started typing it rather than fannying around the other night trying to find a way of copying it I could have typed the whole lot in less time).

Aberdeen City Council, in 2005, wrote:
The practice in Aberdeen has been that it was permitted for the licensed vehicle to be driven by another person, provided it was for domestic purposes. Condition 30 for taxis and Condition 25 for private hire cars expressly state this.

Grampian Police have indicated that they would take no action against a spouse driving a taxi or private hire car for domestic purposes, provided insurance was in place. The Taxi Inspector has advised that this appears to be the position accepted by most police areas in Scotland. The Corporate Director is of the opinion that this is a very important issue, given the number of saloon taxis and private hire cars in operation in Aberdeen, and in probably other more rural areas of Scotland, with dual roles as work and domestic vehicles, and the position should be clarified as soon as possible.

The trade representatives on the Review Group have expressed surprise as to the apparent illegality of a practice that has been widely accepted over many years by the police and the Taxi Inspector. They have also expressed surprise that their insurers, some of whom are based in England and specialise in insuring taxis, have been willing to grant insurance. They would have thought that the insurers would be would have been aware of the legal position.


The Corporate Director was clearly of the view that the practice was illegal, but wanted the Scottish Executive to clarify the matter nationally before taking any action. This was in the Recommendations section of the paper:

Aberdeen City Council, in 2005, wrote:
Notes the Corporate Director of Legal and Democratic Services' opinion that taxis and private hire cars can only be driven by licensed taxi drivers or private hire car drivers (as the case may be) and should not be driven at any times by spouses or other persons, unless they are licensed taxi and private hire car drivers, for social and domestic purposes.

Instructs the Corporate Director to take no action in relation to this matter at this time but to write to the Scottish Executive so that this important matter can be clarified at a national level.


I'm not sure if the matter was ever clarified, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 346
No sorry he doesn't want it on open forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:04 pm 
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rayggb wrote:
No sorry he doesn't want it on open forum.



So did he tell you if it was his opinion or case law ?


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:58 pm 
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It's definitely not his opinion cos he is the main man ,the head of taxi licensing in Sheffield don't think he would just go on opinion.he said so long as I abide by all road traffic laws then there is no problem with carrying 7 (I'm 6) so long as it's SDP and I'm insured for such.he did say it's more trouble than it's worth for me to share his emails.but he seemed to imply that would be the case no matter what email.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:34 pm 
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LICENSED DRIVER - PRIVATE HIRE IS ALWAYS A PRIVATE HIRE.

Leeds City found a licensed private hire vehicle, which had been insured for hire and reward for use by the owner, and for social, domestic and pleasure use by other drivers, being driven by an unlicensed driver. The driver was prosecuted for acting as an unlicensed private hire driver and for driving whilst uninsured. It was put to the court that as he did not hold a private hire drivers licence that the insurance was invalid. It was argued that by virtue of the vehicle being licensed as a private hire vehicle it was always a private hire vehicle and could not be used for any other purpose, including social, domestic and pleasure, unless it was driven by a person who held the appropriate licence under the provisions of the 1976 Act. The Magistrates found Mr Mahmood guilty and he appealed to Leeds Crown Court, (1995), where the appeal was dismissed and the conviction stands for using a vehicle which was not adequately insured.


From the Book...

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Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:59 am 
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rayggb wrote:
It's definitely not his opinion cos he is the main man ,the head of taxi licensing in Sheffield don't think he would just go on opinion.he said so long as I abide by all road traffic laws then there is no problem with carrying 7 (I'm 6) so long as it's SDP and I'm insured for such.he did say it's more trouble than it's worth for me to share his emails.but he seemed to imply that would be the case no matter what email.



Normally the main man cannot lie straight in bed and always mislead on the play of words,do not believe he is daft enough to put that in writing.

My insurance states I must be complying with the conditions of my TAXI license, carry no more than 4 passengers at any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal seats
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:22 am 
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MR T wrote:
LICENSED DRIVER - PRIVATE HIRE IS ALWAYS A PRIVATE HIRE.

Leeds City found a licensed private hire vehicle, which had been insured for hire and reward for use by the owner, and for social, domestic and pleasure use by other drivers, being driven by an unlicensed driver. The driver was prosecuted for acting as an unlicensed private hire driver and for driving whilst uninsured. It was put to the court that as he did not hold a private hire drivers licence that the insurance was invalid. It was argued that by virtue of the vehicle being licensed as a private hire vehicle it was always a private hire vehicle and could not be used for any other purpose, including social, domestic and pleasure, unless it was driven by a person who held the appropriate licence under the provisions of the 1976 Act. The Magistrates found Mr Mahmood guilty and he appealed to Leeds Crown Court, (1995), where the appeal was dismissed and the conviction stands for using a vehicle which was not adequately insured.

From the Book...


Interesting, but doesn't directly address the point in question. No one's disputing that a plated vehicle should be driven by a driver with a badge at all times - it's whether the same rules apply while driving it for SDP.

heathcote wrote:
My insurance states I must be complying with the conditions of my TAXI license, carry no more than 4 passengers at any time.


Again this doesn't directly address the SDP driving question. And since your vehicle is presumably a saloon car, again there's little room for a conflict of opinion on the seating capacity - it will only have four passenger seatbelts, so only legal to carry four passengers irrespective of whether it's plated, or used as a standard motor car.


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