Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Mon May 04, 2026 12:59 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
I'm not going to cut and paste this fascinating and well informed article from Forbes, as it has graphs and quotes that need to be seen as they are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspecu ... 947f51540d

There are so many points made in that article that mirrors what has been put up on TDO time and time again.

Defo worth a read for taxi/PH anoraks.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 435
An LA partner on you tube was saying the surge has been taken off the drivers but the company still charges the customer ,horrible nasty company which will never make a profit!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
rayggb wrote:
An LA partner on you tube was saying the surge has been taken off the drivers but the company still charges the customer ,horrible nasty company which will never make a profit!

Indeed.

There is so much truth in that article that needs to get through to those thinking about investing in Uber, but I doubt they are listening.

But the one thing, IMO, that will ensure Uber never make any kind of return to justify even a fraction of the $100 Billion, is that anyone can copy them.

Uber biggest advantage for a driver is that those drivers can work with any other firm. That's Uber's biggest long term problem as anyone can start up and just use those drivers. I think that's how Ola will become a force in the UK, on the back of Uber drivers.

Thus Uber will not be able to increase fares as Ola will undercut them, and both of them will be undercut by the next new thing, and so it will continue.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 435
Agreed,a race to the bottom.ive always kept away from the ph race


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
rayggb wrote:
Agreed,a race to the bottom.ive always kept away from the ph race

In all fairness the race to the bottom is between the app companies.

Established companies can't really afford to bottom race so in the main they don't.

Hopefully they will win by offering a decent service.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
Thus Uber will not be able to increase fares as Ola will undercut them, and both of them will be undercut by the next new thing, and so it will continue.

This article from the New York Times seems to share my sentiments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/23/tech ... -lyft.html

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
Going down before it even starts.

Still a good buy if you are an utter f***wit.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... up-to-90bn

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:46 pm
Posts: 3
i see uber drivers are going strike before the share issue,

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... strike-ipo

uber have this idea, have loads of drivers, some when the customers want a taxi, they will be there in minutes. what they forget is the driver needs to make a livng and eventually leave. Uber lose billions each year. People will buy into the share issue and when the company collapses will cry. I cannot see how a business model which losses billions each year can continue. Investors keep putting money in each year to cover the losses. As soon as this money stops, uber is probably finished.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
I agree.

Uber will never make money out of this trade, for the reasons the clever economists have repeatedly said.

Uber's main aim is to make money out of driver-less cars, some time in the future, but they wont.

The people who will make money out of driver-less cars, should that actually happen in our lifetimes, will be the car manufacturers, or the software companies.

Uber will never make a profit.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
Another great article from the Economist Magazine.

Can Uber ever make money?

London cabbies enjoy a good moan. But few can match the satirical indignation of a former ferry operator, John Taylor, who used to carry passengers on the Thames. As well as being a “waterman”, Taylor was a poet, writing in the 1620s just when horse-drawn Hackney carriages were making their debut on the streets of the capital. In “An Arrant Thief”, published in 1622, he described the carnage from “upstart Hell-cart-coaches” robbing his brethren of their fares. “Against the ground, we stand and knock our heels/Whilst all our profit runs away on wheels.”

Four centuries later, profits across the global taxi industry are again running away—but this time into thin air. Until recently, the fortunes of regulated cab companies drew the most attention. Uber and Lyft in America, Didi in China and other ride-hailing firms elsewhere have used sackloads of venture capital to drive down fares and flood the streets of big cities with cars, clobbering the earnings of licensed rivals. But now their own losses are in the spotlight. In a filing released in the run-up to its initial public offering, Uber says it has lost $7.9bn since 2009. Lyft, which listed last month, lost $2.9bn in seven years. Uber is seeking a valuation of up to $100bn but as yet it is unclear if it can make money. To understand why, it helps to look at the history of the taxi industry. When regulated, it is a cushy business. When not, it is cut-throat.

Start with Uber’s most oft-touted attributes. Its name has become synonymous with ride-hailing thanks to rapid expansion that its advocates put down to “first-mover advantage” and network effects, or the belief that it will become more valuable as more people use it. The company claims to have more than 65% of the ride-hailing market in the United States and Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand, and Latin America. But it sees itself as more than just a taxi company, with car ownership and public transport in its sights. The proposed valuation implies a huge market which Uber would need to all but monopolise.

Look through history, though, and taxi monopolies look anything but impregnable. That is because the ride-hailing business, which will remain Uber’s bread and butter for the foreseeable future, is local, not global. And, as long as competition is unregulated, entering local markets is relatively easy. Len Sherman of Columbia Business School draws a parallel between Uber’s business and that of unregulated taxis in New York in the 1930s, when Ford’s Model t emerged as a new, low-cost cab. During the Depression many jobless workers took to taxi-driving for a living, undercutting each other viciously. The streets were saturated with vehicles but the earnings of drivers and taxi companies evaporated. Customers benefited, but no one else did. Uber and Lyft are reprising that episode as they fight city by city for drivers and customers.

Uber’s name recognition may help. Historically, taxi firms have benefited from strong brands. London’s black taxis, or New York’s yellow ones, for instance, attract users despite high fares and relative scarcity. They are hallmarks of their cities. In an ideal world for Uber, brand awareness would mean customers went straight to its app rather than that of a rival, convincing more drivers to work for it because they can access a bigger market. This would produce the vaunted network effect for drivers and riders.

The trouble is, as competition increases, ride-hailing becomes a commodity business. Customers care little whether they ride with Uber or Lyft, as long as it gets them from a to b. That means neither firm can easily increase profits by raising fares, but may instead have to offer discounts. Likewise, the ride-hailing firms do not own their cars: their drivers do, and so have no reason to be loyal. That forces the firms to pile on incentives to stop drivers from deserting, kicking profits even further down the road.

Throughout taxi history, the answer to such a race to the bottom has been regulation. In 1635 the number of Hackney carriages in London was restricted to reduce congestion (Taylor must have breathed a sigh of relief). In 1937 the Haas Act introduced the medallion system in New York, putting strict curbs on the number of medallions and driving up their value. Recently the city’s regulators have moved to control ride-hailing, capping the number of vehicles and introducing a minimum wage for drivers. That could become a trend.

So much for the past. What about the future? Uber’s foray into Uber Eats, its food-delivery service, may be an even tougher business proposition than ride-hailing; it has to give restaurateurs a cut of each sale, as well as drivers. Its core measure of revenue at Uber Eats fell in the second half of 2018 compared with the first half. That was not encouraging. The firm is expanding into broader mobility services, such as scooters and electric bikes, and is building a platform that includes public transport, so customers can travel more seamlessly across a city. But again, competition will be intense: city governments will be loth to link access to their public-transport systems to a single platform, for safety, data-privacy and other reasons.

Uber’s long-term goal is autonomous vehicles (avs), which would reduce its need to share revenues with human drivers. On April 18th Toyota and other investors put $1bn into Uber’s av division. On April 22nd Tesla unveiled plans to roll out robotaxis next year. That promise is subject to huge regulatory uncertainty, plus an Elon Musk bravado discount. But many other companies are keen to enter the fray. Expect fisticuffs.

Too Uber to fail

Uber will surely have a place in the future of transport. It may be able to increase rider and driver loyalty by replacing fares with monthly subscriptions. It may settle for dominating some cities, leaving others to rivals, provided that does not violate antitrust rules. History suggests that profits will be hard to come by. But at least its name should live on, just as Taylor’s hated Hackney “Hell-carts” do in London’s black cabs, 400 years later.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 6:33 am
Posts: 18540
Economist Magazine wrote:
Look through history, though, and taxi monopolies look anything but impregnable. That is because the ride-hailing business, which will remain Uber’s bread and butter for the foreseeable future, is local, not global. And, as long as competition is unregulated, entering local markets is relatively easy. Len Sherman of Columbia Business School draws a parallel between Uber’s business and that of unregulated taxis in New York in the 1930s, when Ford’s Model t emerged as a new, low-cost cab. During the Depression many jobless workers took to taxi-driving for a living, undercutting each other viciously. The streets were saturated with vehicles but the earnings of drivers and taxi companies evaporated. Customers benefited, but no one else did. Uber and Lyft are reprising that episode as they fight city by city for drivers and customers.


Don't think that's a good comparison, because in TDO-speak it's basically comparing the economics of being a spiv with the economics of being a driver - in reality the two interests are competing with each other rather than being identical.

But the next paragraph about brands etc is essentially correct, and that's why there's no reason Uber couldn't succeed in principle, at least no more than any other cab despatch operation.

Uber's problem isn't the basic principle, it's the start up costs, subsidies and over-rapid expansion which may well bring it down. At the end of the day 'bottomless pits' of money literally don't exist.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
But the next paragraph about brands etc is essentially correct, and that's why there's no reason Uber couldn't succeed in principle, at least no more than any other cab despatch operation.

That assumes customers will be loyal.

Also there would be nothing stopping other household brands like the Easy or Virgin groups joining the party.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 6:33 am
Posts: 18540
Sussex wrote:
Quote:
But the next paragraph about brands etc is essentially correct, and that's why there's no reason Uber couldn't succeed in principle, at least no more than any other cab despatch operation.

That assumes customers will be loyal.


Indeed, but you could say that about any brand or business. We could discuss the ins and outs all day and, for example, why brands in the trade may or may not be stronger than brands in the wider economy. But bottom line is that I don't see any reason in principle why Uber can't be as successful as other brands, both in the trade and in the wider economy.

Quote:
Also there would be nothing stopping other household brands like the Easy or Virgin groups joining the party.


Yes, but to a degree you're arguing against yourself by citing some long-standing and successful household brands - why shouldn't Uber be likewise?

And indeed airline brands like Virgin demonstrate that some come and go, some are successful, some not so, some expand, some contract, some disappear, some are a flash in the pan.

Remember Laker Airways? Or BOAC and BEA domestically? Or TWA and Pan Am in the USA? :shock:

As regards Uber, certainly wouldn't be surprised if at some time there's a big shake out, and the profitable areas like London will be retained, while they'll probably pull out of some areas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:47 pm
Posts: 20863
Location: Stamford Britains prettiest town till SKDC ruined it
The one thing not considered is that UBER has become a vast enterprise and as such will have much more resilience to price competition than most

Uber is capable of PRICING ALL OF THE COMPETITION OUT OF THE MARKET and bearing those losses for many years

I personally think this flotation will be over subscribed many times and that Uber simply are TOO big to fail being capable of sustaining losses for many years until AV's bring them the 100 percent commission this business model needs to make a profit

_________________
lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57358
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
Uber is capable of PRICING ALL OF THE COMPETITION OUT OF THE MARKET and bearing those losses for many years

Not when they are a public company.

Now if it was Uber against the traditional taxi/PH trade your suggestion could happen. Personally I don't think it will, but clearly it could.

Uber's problem is new Uber type companies (Lyft, Ola, My Taxi and the rest), who Uber have lined up a ready supply of drivers.

So, IMO, Uber's biggest problem is their own business model.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 713 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group