Taxi Driver Online

So i had a taxi inspection at Chorley council. I was told to remove my 4D number plates and get regular ones as the 4D plates are illegal.

I went straight to the taxi MOT test centre and told the guy at garage. He was shocked. He actually measured the spacings etc and said theres nothing wrong with the plates and they are legal, however i still got them changed to avoid the trouble with council.

I emailed the guy from council who was inspecting the car and asked him a few questions:

1) How are my 4D plates illegal?

2) If they are not illegal, what authority does the council have to refuse perfectly legal number plates?

Has anyone EVER had this issue before?

No doubt you're as capable as any of us to find out using Google whether or not they're illegal. But the advice seems to be that 4D plates are not necessarily illegal, but can be deemed illegal if they're difficult to read from an angle, say.

This is from Auto Express magazine, but the other advice online (mainly from number plate suppliers) seems to be along similar lines:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advi ... they-legal


So it's obviously a grey area, but I'd say your council would have difficulty justifying stating they're illegal if you formally challenged them. Unless, of course, they could claim that they were difficult to read in certain circumstances.

But you'll know what dealing with councils is like, and possibly better to just play ball rather than challenge them.

And, indeed, that's why I only ever have the bog standard number plates.

Which reminds me that I meant to replace mine before my next taxi test - got an MoT advisory that there were a couple of cracks in the rear plate which could make it difficult to read, but they were still legible

And to be honest I'd never even heard of 4D plates until reading your post, so I doubt if many people in the trade will have tried them out, and thus you're unlikely to get a reply on here from anyone with direct experience.

And I daresay the tester hasn't come across them before either, and thus he automatically assumed they're illegal, but I suspect he'll find it difficult to answer your questions on precisely how they're illegal

Well, well i have received a reply from the council:

Dear Mr ......,

Thanks for your email. The legislation relating to vehicle registration marks (number plates) is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... rt/II/made

The power to issue a private hire vehicle licence is contained within Section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/57/section/48. This section provides a local authority complete discretion on whether to issue a vehicle licence. You’re quite right to state the Council has no authority to require you to remove the plates. However, as I explain above, it does have the authority to refuse to grant you a licence if you insist on having the plates on the vehicle. This is what I explained to you during the inspection- it was then open to you to carry out whatever action you wished. Obviously, as you wished to have the vehicle licensed, you chose to change the plates.

Could you please confirm that the vehicle currently has “regular” (ie. not 4d) plates fitted? Could you also confirm that the vehicle will not be fitted with 4d plates for the duration of the licence. If the vehicle were to be observed with these plates fitted, the licence would likely be suspended and consideration would be given as to whether to review the licence.
I trust this clarifies the matter.

Kind regards,

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I have already sent my reply to him now as below:

Thanks for taking the time out and replying. First of all i would like to make it clear, i am only taking up this issue as alot of drivers i have spoken to feel like alot of rules are not clear and every driver gets told different. In this case, it seems like there is no rule or condition mentioned anywhere as to 4D plates not being allowed on taxis in Chorley and are illegal as i was told by you. Its just not right as taxi drivers get them made perfectly legal and spend all that money only for the council to rule otherwise, where that rule/condition is not mentioned anywhere.

As to the first link you have sent, does it mention of taxis having a different law as to what a legal and illegal number plate is? Does it mention of 4D plates being illegal? Please can you highlight in the legislation you have sent the relevant section relating to 4D plates.

And as for your second point, i dont dispute you having complete discretion on issuing the vehicle license. My point is, is there any rule or condition that chorley council only accepts regular plates on taxis? Please can you show me where so i can make other drivers aware. I mean if the council starts implementing rules and conditions not mentioned anywhere, when they want and on who they want, where the driver is completely obeying by the law (as in my case), the drivers are in no mans land.


Also as to the council having complete discretion, ime sure the same rules are to be applied across the board and on everyone? If not, could that not come under discrimination? Ive seen loads of taxis in Chorley and out of Chorley with 4D plates and they have had them on for years and years, thats why i am bringing up this point.

Will all the drivers be made aware that these 3D/4D plates are considered illegal on taxis in Chorley and anyone found to have them could have there license suspended and consideration would be given as to whether to review the licence? 

Please could you also confirm if the MOT centres approved for taxi tests have been told that 4D plates are illegal on taxis, as you told me, as ime sure the number plates are part of the MOT test. Please advise if i am wrong.

Regards

The council's response is just diverting from your question and essentially ignores what you asked about the precise legalities.

Probably because they don't have a specific rule on the subject. Thus it's essentially down to the standard legislation and DVLA rules, unless Chorley has rules of its own on number plates, which they obviously don't.

So unless the council can demonstrate that your plates are illegal under the more general law, in essence they don't have a leg to stand on.

And if what you say about other plated cars having the same 4D number plates fitted, then there's an obvious inconsistency there.

But, of course, whether to take them on over the issue is another matter. If it was me I'd avoid a ruck over it, but that's why I avoid stuff like 4D plates in the first place

The thing is, Chorley council are absolute t***s with taxi drivers thats why i want to take them on on this issue. The funny thing is i had these same 4D plates on my previous taxi and a few months ago this same officer rung me and said on eof my back lights is not working, to fix it and bring it for inspection. I did and guess what, he said nothing about my 4D number plates

Sounds about right

But, as a lot of people will tell you, taking them on over stuff like this can be fraught with difficulty, and could misfire spectacularly

But I'm sure you won't need me to tell you that.

4D plates must be a thing down your way, though. Pretty sure no plated vehicles around here have 4D plates.

And while I'm aware of non-standard number plates, obviously, before reading your post I'd never even heard of 4D plates

Maybe I should get a set of these and see what the council says

Suspect they're a bit more, er, exotic than yours, though

But for anyone not up to speed with 4D number plates, this seems to be the basic design, and presumably more like the type Mr WWN1989's council is objecting to:

We live in a 3D world. Not sure how 4D is possible.

Never bothered with vanity plates myself, but each to their own. They don’t bring in extra work (or do they?)

_________________
Former taxi driver

The council cannot insist or have discretion over what national statute law says. Whatever Parliament has decided on in statute law is what matters. I had a similar argument over vehicle age not so many years ago and won the day. the DVLA rules are not enforceable unless it is in statute law or has been judged on in higher courts.

Councils don't like 4D plates for the reason they can baffle or give false readings to traffic enforcement cameras. £100 a time lost is the real reason they don't like them.

In general terms councils can have more stringent rules than what's written down in statute with regards to construction and use and stuff like that. Ditto stuff like driver medicals. Unlike HGVs and bus drivers, there's nothing in statute law saying that councils can specify Group 4 standards for HC and PHV drivers, but obviously most insist on the latter these days. And unlikely that a court would deem Group 4 requirements for taxi drivers illegal.

And, I mean, to take a current issue, I doubt it's illegal for councils to specify Euro 6 emmissions standards for HCs and PHVs, or whatever, but on the other hand I doubt any council has been challenged in court in that regard.

But these rules should adhere to things like reasonableness and proportionality. To that extent I think a council would have difficultly banning number plates that are perfectly legal on standard motor cars. But, of course, in practice few people have the resources, knowledge or inclination to formally challenge councils regarding stuff like that.


That's like saying a council's taxi rules aren't enforceable until sanctioned by the courts.

In reality, all sorts of public bodies are delegated powers by statute to make rules relevant to whatever sector they're organising, overseeing, regulating, taxing, or whatever.

Of course, these rules can be challenged in court, but until such a challenge is mounted, it's not correct to say that such rules aren't enforceable.

Indeed, Jimbo - wasn't really sure what the difference is between 3D and 4D number plates, and the stuff I've read seems to me to be, er, inconclusive

(But seems like 3D is just a visual effect on a flat plate, whereas on 4D the numbers are actually raised off the surface, which is maybe why there's readability issues with the latter )

And to be honest it seems a bit of a rabbit hole that I'm not really interested in going down. More interested in the MoT advisory on the cracks in my bog standard plates

These are the ones that are now illegal under the current law as the letters have to be solid black.

Yes these are the ones i have which are completely legal. I have had them checked from the taxi MOT centre as well.