Taxi Driver Online

It could be that simple Sussex really. When Steven Norris was Transport Minister under the tories, all this came up. The Government produced a green paper proposing all licensing authorities issued 10% of their current plate Nos year on year for 10 years.


At the end of 10 years, there would be a review to decide on the next stage. More Hackneys, no bankruptcies.

It's all about being fair and open to all.

But isn't that sort of (un-officially) what they are doing in your manor, and some of you colleagues have got the hump over it?

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IDFIMH

Is this a bit like saying only the council can grant you a life at the expense of a license plate?

Sorry 187ums I don't need a plate to see the value the council or the system put upon me. I just need to know I'm not like you tugging forelock everywhere you go.

Imagine that 187ums, you knowing your own self-worth as not dictated by the establishment. Now that would be an achievement.

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All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, "Animal Farm"

Over 70% of councils are either deregulated or are in the process of deregulating, don't you think anyone gambling on buying a plate should have taken this into account? Don't you also think the person gambling on buying a plate should have taken into account the law which states, "a council cannot restrict hackney carriage licenses unless they can prove there is no demand for the services of hackney carriages in their area which is unmet".

Added to that is the fact that the Government has publicly stated and informed councils that they should not restrict licenses because it is not in the public interest. Furthermore the Government has also said they are going to look at the restricted situation again in 2007. Anyone buying a plate undcer those circumstances for large, large bucks is taking a huge huge gamble.



There might be some people in 54 recently delimited authorities who also did their maths but it seems they might have got their sums wrong. Its all right doing maths but what you are really doing is placing blind faith in councillors keeping a policy of restriction, I'm afraid this is something you have no control over and anyone prepared to travel down that road has none of my sympathy.

Anyone is welcome to buy a plate but in my opinion they are utterly foolish paying big money for one and putting themselves in deep dept to finance it.



You don't have a monopoly on who can drive or own a cab. Just because someone has been in the business a few years longer than the next guy doesn't give them special privileges on employment. The sooner you get that out of your system the sooner you might realise the world doesn't owe you a living. Like I said 70% of councils operate an open market just because you might reside in an area that restricts licenses you think you should be somewhat privileged.



Perhaps it might teach him a very valuable lesson not to put his blind faith in something he has no control over. Since 1985 anyone who bought a plate has been taking a chance, I assume they know that, so they only have themselves to blame if the roof caves in.



So you admit it was a mistake? But as I previously said over 70% of councils don't restrict numbers and some of those councils that do have only recently done so. Where as before there was no premium on these plates those councils that have re introduced restrictions have instantly created a premium.

If a person is willing to gamble on an insecure investment then they pay their money and take their chance, that's the nature of the game in restricted authorities. Blaming others when things go pear shaped, is just sour grapes.

Regards

JD

dont worry we all know who to blame, I will give you a little list:-

You

Your buddies

Your buddies at the OFT - who by the way dont know jack about real world issues.

Why not try to see if you can get a Kebab Van License, isn't it against the public interest when all these people have to queue in the cold to get thier kebabs? I bet your council wont issue you a license willily nillily.

It seems to be beyond your grasp about:

Rank Problems - oops I forget the OFT say its inconsequential.

Plate Values are too high - so basically let all and sundry into the business, dont give a chit about people who have invested in the business.

Rentals are too high - go and drive private hire, its funny how everyone wants a Hackney Carriage.

Being Serfs - what you think in dereg land its all a bed of roses?

More Cars chasing less work - but the market will decide, yawn yawn

Surveys - but the surveys are flawed or fixed

Quality Standards - no problem pay 33k for a TX, I forget its rubbish, so you want bread vans, or maybe even a Dublin as espoused by your guru John Fingleton or you want a six year rule.

but these problems dont matter do they, as long as thier are cars for the Saturday nights, then it dont matter they will be scratching thier balls the rest of the time.

As for dereg, well it might come, and then what? will you be happy that your mates have got thier plates? and then will come the eventual bankruptcies, houses being repossesed, loss of earnings, and it will all be back at square one.

lol its good to see your at home for once and not flogging your guts out behind a wheel.

Dereg isn't coming to your area is it? I was under the impression you had special dispensation like sefton? lol

JD

It's no good all falling out, what will be will be. But surely a slow steady release is good for all.

Its a bit like a tap, if you control the flow, you get clean water. If the pipe bursts, you get a nasty mess.

But the problem is it's never really a steady flow.

You either get de-limit, and the existing trade goes mad, or a gradual release, and the existing trade goes mad.

The only time the existing trade doesn't go mad is when councils say they will de-limit, but then back down to a gradual flow.

As for the falling out issue, just imagine how strong and united this trade could be if we didn't have the daily fight over taxi quotas.

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IDFIMH

I think your analysis is quite astute Mr littlejack3, if only because it largely concurs with my own

But I think that ultimately the tap has to run freely, but with the nice clean water resulting from quality controls.

Issuing plates gradually has its merits, but what is to say that it will improve things from the current situation where a driver never really knows how long he'll be on the list? After all, if Manchester had agreed 20 years ago to issue 20 plates a year, I think I'd be right in saying that the number of taxis would be even smaller than it is now, and thus plate premiums probably higher? (My figures may be wrong here, but I think you'll get the idea).

Of course, a fixed number of plates could be issued each year that would eventually result in a derestricted market brought about without catastrophe, but that presupposes that someone knows the correct figure, and history suggests that those who decide these things aren't very good at forecasting of this kind.

My own personal preference is a variation on your theme - derestriction, but delayed for several years to give plate holders a chance to recoup their 'investment'.

This could have been achieved to some extent already, since when the Govt responded to OFT it gave a fairly clear signal that destriction was probably on the cards for the future. Thus by the time this had come about plate values would have dwindled away because people would not put money in something that looked increasingly like a waste of money, or those that did could effectively be characterised as gamblers, pure and simple.

Of course, this depends on those buying plates being fully informed about what's going on, and with the likes of the NTA misrepresenting the Govt's position then basically that kind of thing creates a false market in plates - ie people are paying more for them than the REAL risk suggests that they are worth.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

That's a reasonable idea, but again to some extent it's second guessing the market, and if demand for taxis doubled in the ten years then the market would be as distorted at the end of the ten years as at the start.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

But from what I know of the trade there's plenty 'beer money' drivers in restricted areas, it's just that they are driving an incumbent plateholder's vehicle and making him money, thus it's not deemed a problem. If there aren't beer money drivers it's probably because it's quite difficult to get a badge and the tax man is fairly vigilant in the particular area, and is not really related to restricted numbers per se.

The key is to have controls in place such that £600 cabs and 'beer money' drivers are kept out of the trade, this combined with a gradualist approach to plate issues would do the trick

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

This comes back to the first ever discussion we had on here JD, and as you know I'm a bit more sympathetic towards those who have bought a plate.

I suppose the conflicting views can be distilled into two main perspectives:

1 - the plate holder took a gamble, so tough titties if it went belly up;

2 - the plate holder bought something that he thought, in good faith, was a sound 'investment'.

I think you, Sussex and the OFT take the former view, as I think John Fingleton did as regards the Dublin market.

I'm more inclined to the latter view, as is Mr littlejack3.

Of course, it's not easy discerning who genuninely belongs in camp 1 or 2 - some people clearly regard it as a camp 1 scenario when they buy it, but when the threat of derestriction rears its ugly head then they've transferred into camp 2.

Of course, they're not acting in good faith, because basically they're lying, but how do you tell? And in any case I'm sure there are plenty who genuinely belong in camp 2, thus to that extent a gradualist approach is equitable, therefore it will assist those in camp 1 as well, thus in effect their gamble becomes a one way bet (although they'll still be worse off, of course, than if restricted numbers were to continue), but I suppose that's the price of equitable treatment of those in camp 2.

Take Brighton, for example - although the Govt gave a fairly clear delimitation signal, when it was discussed in the House of Commons the transport minister Tony McNulty gave a fairly clear signal in the opposite direction, and effectively said that B&H council were paragons of restricted numbers virtue.

And whether this was merely to suck up to B&H MP David Lepper who spoke in the debate, I think that for anyone contemplating buying a B&H plate in Brighton it gave a fairly clear signal that the 'investment' was fairly sound.

Of course, the opposite view to my own is the caveat emptor perspective, but as I've said before people spending a lot less money than for a plate are afforded a lot more consumer protection in the 'real' world.

If it was up to me then at the very least I'd ensure that plate purchasers were made to sign a declaration that they knew the derestriction could arise and that they were aware of the risks, which would probably have had a dampening effect on plate prices.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Mr TDO. I think you and I agree on most things generally. Reading your posts.

Some times the taxi trade is it's own worst enemy. They fight & argue over silly things. Some people only ever see the next £3.

I have owned & driven both Hack & PHV and the main reason I prefer Hack is because you can be truly independant. IE- No radio company telling you if you don't pick Billy up, they'll cut off your box/radio or whatever.

Both have advantages/disadvantages. I said in an earlier post that, the mistake was made by ever allowing numerical controls in the first place. I believe this was taken into consideration when the 1976 (Misc Prov) Act was drawn up to make sure it didn't happen to PHV.

Just imagine the mess that could cause now, if phv plates had been restricted & acquired a value, and along come some brave soul saying "I know lets de-reg". It's a interesting site this, I might tell a few people about it.

Which was exactly what the Scottish Task Force wanted.

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IDFIMH

Yes, and wasn't that because the taxi trade wanted it?

Well what a surprise!

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk