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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:12 pm 
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I may do an article on this depending how events unfold, on the other hand I suspect Mr Cab has already set wheels in motion to do likewise. One would hope that if he uses the resources or references or feedback from this website he will acknowledges as such in any article he may author?


I copied and pasted the cases you mentioned in the other section and forwarded them to our licensing officer, I additionally sent an email that they were courtesy of this website.

Feel free to write anything you wish on the matter, if you require copies of anything I have forwarded to the press or the LA on this matter, I will send them to the website. (I found the press reasonably selective in what they chose to print from the TOA press release).

It is interesting to note the cases mentioned so far involve two parties.

In the Leeds case it was between one person and a nightclub.

In the other (Crawley?) it was one person and an Education department.

With pink ladies its several vehicles and potentially thousands of members.

In the case of the education department you could state one driver carrys one passenger on a pre priced route for a set period.

In the nightclub case you could say pick up staff at a set time each evening.

With the pink ladies the service is on demand.

I sincerely hope the LA here stick by their guns.

regards

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:18 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
I have already stated the costs of purchasing the vehicles and franchise, this amounts to many thousands of pounds, why would any company go to such lengths to be outside of the regulatory framework, when licensing would cost a fraction of the amount.

Would it be the driving tests? the CRB check? the Conditions of License? or as this site puts it, the 'hassle' attributed to licensing.



Well when you put it like that, there does seem quite a lot of hassle involved, since while licensing the vehicle may not be particularly onerous, the drivers maybe a different proposition altogether, particularly given Kerry Katona's alleged indiscretions. :lol:

But I'd always assumed that the drivers are exempt if the vehicle was - are they?

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:19 pm 
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Press release from Carlisle TOA (sent to local press early last week)






As you will be aware from recent press coverage, a new private hire firm is in the process of launched in various areas around the country. The firm is woman only, with woman only drivers, dressed in pink uniforms, driving pink vehicles. It was reported in one paper, to ‘get around’ sexism laws the firm operates as a private club. There are franchise ‘opportunities’ across the UK.

Obviously there are a number of points we would raise. Firstly it is a franchise ‘opportunity’; in effect you are paying for some-ones idea. The idea of a woman only private hire firm isnt particularly new, indeed from memory one was started in ‘Carry on Cabbie’, in this respect perhaps a percentage of the franchise fee should go towards the memory of Sid James. However, there is nothing really to stop any of you females reading this from buying a pink vehicle, putting on a pink uniform and starting your own club in your own area. Any exclusivity does disappear within licensing law, in so much as you shouldn’t call yourselves the same name but anything else goes.

Anyway, the last time we heard it wasn’t actually illegal to buy a Pink Renault Kangoo.

The story also stated “There are always stories about woman being raped, murdered or attacked and we wanted to set up a company that allowed woman to be able to go on a night out and get home safely”. The inference from this is quite obvious and this is what the taxi trade takes exception to.

In relation to the press, we have all seen and have been repulsed by the stories attributed to unlicensed minicabs and unlicensed taxi drivers. The point is they are unlicensed and therefore illegal. Properly Licensed Taxi and Private Hire Drivers are in all areas vetted by local authorities, 99.9% of licensed drivers of both codes are decent law abiding citizens, if they weren’t the chances are, they wouldn’t be licensed!

You will of course note it has been quoted as ‘getting around’ sexism laws. Whatever next, should we try to get around race laws? Or Disability Discrimination Laws? What about smoking laws?

‘Getting around’ mean’s circumventing; sexism laws were introduced to ensure a person’s sex wasn’t a barrier. We have a kind of reverse sexism in operation. Listening to daytime, radio it would appear that many people think it’s a positive move. Which is not exactly surprising but to me more sad than anything. The analogy of a male only private hire firm has been used, with presenters saying they’d have no objection to something like that starting. Although we can imagine the headlines if a ‘male only’ firm refused to pick up a female passenger who was subsequently raped.

Personally I don’t think it’s either a good thing or a bad thing, just plain sad; We’re taxi drivers after all. It is a poor reflection on society that woman feel so threatened they actually need woman only private hire firms. But then again, Carlisle’s taxi trade don’t care if your male, female, disabled, able-bodied or what race, colour or creed you are, your money is as good as anyone else’s.

Whilst sexism laws may be conveniently sidestepped, it also seems people believe the 1976 Local Government Miscellaneous Provisions act can be ‘gotten around’ too. They claim to offer a chauffeur type of service and therefore needn’t be licensed in the same way as taxis and other private hire vehicles. Yet section 80 of the Act clearly defines an ‘operator’ as a person who; ‘In the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle’ section 75 of the same act gives the possible exemptions from licensing, none of which seem applicable to the ‘Think Pink Movement’.

It is amazing for a company claiming to operate in the interest of the safety, with woman feeling safe and at ease, to seek exemption from the 1976 act, which was and is specifically designed to ensure that both the vehicles and drivers are regulated and safe. All licensed drivers in Carlisle are subject to medicals, driving ability tests, tests on licensing conditions and Criminal Record Checks.

Operating private hire vehicles within Carlisle is not particularly onerous, the license costs are relatively inexpensive and reflect the cost of the licensing regime, the conditions applied to drivers licenses, although worthy of note, are not particularly burdensome, but burdensome enough to ensure a high standard and as the premises will presumably be in another district, planning permission is not really a concern.

With licensing rules in Carlisle being sufficient enough to ensure a decent standard of driver, but not overly difficult, it makes you wonder why any firm would wish to actively seek the wrath of both the taxi trade and local authority. Free publicity is one obvious thought, the fact I’m writing this letter again highlighting the trades concerns gives the ‘Think Pink movement’ another platform.

The fact that it’s proposed that the vehicles and drivers are not regulated by the City Council should be of concern to everyone. Every licensed vehicle in Carlisle is checked mechanically up-to three times per year depending upon age, all vehicles must have the necessary (and expensive) ‘Hire & Reward’ insurance, drivers are checked annually and the local authority are accountable for every licensed vehicle and driver. Although taxi drivers in the City occasionally grumble about the City Council being rather strict, it is generally accepted that they are doing a difficult job in balancing themselves between protecting the public and being reasonable towards its licensees.

As an association we respect the fact that the local authority can and do make difficult decisions.

The licensing laws pertaining to taxis and private hire vehicles were set in place to protect the public, as I stated earlier, the association fail to understand how the public will be better off with a ‘Wimmin Only’ unlicensed and unregulated private hire company, but then again we’re only cab driver’s.

Carlisle Taxi Association

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:39 pm 
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One of the main reasons cited by Pink Ladies solicitor for going down this road was the constant need to keep records of hire, and such like. In other words red tape is the main reason for taking this route.

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JD


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:20 pm 
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One of the main reasons cited by Pink Ladies solicitor for going down this road was the constant need to keep records of hire, and such like. In other words red tape is the main reason for taking this route.

Regards

JD


Surely records are kept in the interests of public safety, exactly how often are people asked to produce records?

The only time I've been asked for records is to confirm to the LA (or police) which driver did which job.

I mean do the Pink Ladies really believe that the LA will sift through their records?

In anycase, I would presume to ensure they act in accordance with section 75 exemption record keeping will be essential in proving a particular car is doing the correct work :lol:

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:29 pm 
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JD wrote:
Having today spoken with the Pink ladies solicitor in respect of the proposed new Franchise in Carlisle I can inform everyone that the section being relied upon is section 75. (B)

(b) apply to a vehicle used only for carrying passengers for hire or reward
under a contract for the hire of the vehicle for a period of not less than
seven days;

To get work for these vehicles they need to advertise for work, and when you advertise for work you are an operator.

The 1976 Act doesn't exempt operators.

If it was one pink lady, in one pink lady vehicle, doing one pink lady contract, with a start and finish date of more than 7 days, then everything is ticker-tee-boo.

But it's not, and shame on the brief who thinks it is. [-X

But one thing I can't work out is WTF don't they just get licensed as PH. They seem to have pukka motors, they seem to want to have CRB checks, so why not just do it right? :-k

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:35 pm 
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To get work for these vehicles they need to advertise for work, and when you advertise for work you are an operator.

The 1976 Act doesn't exempt operators.

If it was one pink lady, in one pink lady vehicle, doing one pink lady contract, with a start and finish date of more than 7 days, then everything is ticker-tee-boo.

But it's not, and shame on the brief who thinks it is.

But one thing I can't work out is WTF don't they just get licensed as PH. They seem to have pukka motors, they seem to want to have CRB checks, so why not just do it right?


I agree with everything you say :shock: :shock: :shock: (on this issue anyway :wink: )

Under the franchise they must get a minimum of 7 vehicles, the only winner in this whole thing is the person selling the franchise.

I think they know the idea can be copied (possibly because they copied it first) and this is what theyre scared of.

Thinking on about the costs....I forgot to add insurance so at say £2K per vehicle the costs of the franchise could be approaching £90K

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:47 pm 
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TDO wrote:
captain cab wrote:
You are correct, the franchise sellers told the potential franchisees they didnt need to be licensed. (which was rather funny because where they operated in Warrington they were licensed and in London they are on the PHV operator register)



Yes, I had assumed that the following from the newspaper article meant that some kind of official endorsement to the club idea had been forthcoming, but it's obviously just a line spun by the pinkies and accepted as read by the newspaper without getting the LA's side of things:

Because they are run on a membership basis, Pink Ladies does not need to be licensed by Carlisle City Council like traditional taxis


The devil is going to be in the detail of the contract which according to Mr Greene is not yet finalised? I suspect when the contract becomes available we will be in a better position to judge its legality?

In the meantime we will just have to wait and see if they produce a contract or go down the route of Warrington etc?

One thing they probably don't like is the fact that only those persons who currently hold a private hire driver license can drive a private hire vehicle. I suppose that might exclude their hubbies? lol

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:54 pm 
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The devil is going to be in the detail of the contract which according to Mr Greene is not yet finalised? I suspect when the contract becomes available we will be in a better position to judge its legality?

In the meantime we will just have to wait and see if they produce a contract or go down the route of Warrington etc?

One thing they probably don't like is the fact that only those persons who currently hold a private hire driver license can drive a private hire vehicle. I suppose that might exclude their hubbies? lol

Regards

JD


They better hurry up and finalise it, they are launching in 3 weeks time :shock:

Personally I cannot foresee any circumstances where a contract will satisfy the licensing requirements of section 75.

I passed on the touting law to the LA, I wonder if the LA will allow them to recruit in the City Centre now?

One obvious question is the following scenario;

My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

Another scenario;

A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:55 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Quote:

One obvious question is the following scenario;

My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

Another scenario;

A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

Captain Cab


the answer to your above questions are

Q:My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

A: No

Q:A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

A:No

on the latter you don't see many pink laides cars around warrington on friday sat night until about 4am then they seem to be flying around everywhere obviously pick our reputable warrington girls from various fellas house after there night of carnial fun :D

i have also been told by various people and customers thy don't mention any of these scenarios and how the play out when you pay your £1 registration fee only when you decided to book a car

i have also heard that they refused a mother with shopping from asda with her 14 year old son and an elderly womans husband who is her full time carerer he was told i heard that they will take her but he will have to get an ordinary Cab also the run very late in warrington almost as bad im told as our biggest ph firm how they manage to run late when only catering to 6% of the population is beyond me


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:56 pm 
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captain cab wrote:

One obvious question is the following scenario;

My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

Another scenario;

A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

Captain Cab


the answer to your above questions are

Q:My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

A: No

Q:A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

A:No

on the latter you don't see many pink laides cars around warrington on friday sat night until about 4am then they seem to be flying around everywhere obviously pick our reputable warrington girls from various fellas house after there night of carnial fun :D

i have also been told by various people and customers they don't mention any of these scenarios and how the play out when you pay your £1 registration fee only when you decided to book a car so obviously there trying to make as much money as they can on the reg fee regardless

i have also heard that they refused a mother with shopping from asda with her 14 year old son and an elderly womans husband who is her full time carerer he was told i heard that they will take her but he will have to get an ordinary Cab also the run very late in warrington almost as bad im told as our biggest ph firm how they manage to run late when only catering to 6% of the population is beyond me


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:59 pm 
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sorry for dble post and bad spelling grammer :D :-o :D


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:04 pm 
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quote="captain cab"]Quote:


One obvious question is the following scenario;

My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

Another scenario;

A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

Captain Cab


the answer to your above questions are

Q:My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

A: No

Q:A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

A:No

on the latter you don't see many pink laides cars around warrington on friday sat night until about 4am then they seem to be flying around everywhere obviously pick our reputable warrington girls from various fellas house after there night of carnial fun

i have also been told by various people and customers they don't mention any of these scenarios and how the play out when you pay your £1 registration fee only when you decided to book a car so obviously there trying to make as much money as they can on the reg fee regardless

i have also heard that they refused a mother with shopping from asda with her 14 year old son and an elderly womans husband who is her full time carerer he was told i heard that they will take her but he will have to get an ordinary Cab also the run very late in warrington almost as bad im told as our biggest ph firm how they manage to run late when only catering to 6% of the population is beyond me


mctaxi Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

captain cab wrote:
Quote:


One obvious question is the following scenario;

My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

Another scenario;

A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

Captain Cab


the answer to your above questions are

Q:My wife is a club member, I am not, we want to go out on an evening, can I be carried?

A: No

Q:A club member go's out on an evening and wants to take a boyfreind home (for coffee obviously), can he be carried?

A:No

on the latter you don't see many pink laides cars around warrington on friday sat night until about 4am then they seem to be flying around everywhere obviously pick our reputable warrington girls from various fellas house after there night of carnial fun

i have also been told by various people and customers thy don't mention any of these scenarios and how the play out when you pay your £1 registration fee only when you decided to book a car

i have also heard that they refused a mother with shopping from asda with her 14 year old son and an elderly womans husband who is her full time carerer he was told i heard that they will take her but he will have to get an ordinary Cab also the run very late in warrington almost as bad im told as our biggest ph firm how they manage to run late when only catering to 6% of the population is beyond me



Thanks McTaxi

Obviously the business doesnt pay....but selling franchises may :wink:

As for prices any examples?

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:16 pm 
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as far as im aware in warrington the run the same meter rates as us hacks and only take payment via credit debit card or you can open an account with them simalr thing to pay and go pay loadup so much credit and use it for taxis they don't carry cash because they don't want to run the risk of being robbed oh ya and there trained in self defence

one funny story that i was told by a st helens licencing offical was a few of the girls failed the warriington knowladge test fair enough i did to on first attempt but rather than resit it they decided to go to st helens council and apply for hackney/private driver licences there theres no knowladge test in st helens you just have to pass the crb and pay the council they then came back to warrington and presented the badges to our LA stating they we taxi drivers and when our LO told them there badges only allow them to drive taxi's in the st helens area not warrington they went back to st helens council and demanded there money back which st helens council said politly NO


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:37 pm 
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as far as im aware in warrington the run the same meter rates as us hacks and only take payment via credit debit card or you can open an account with them simalr thing to pay and go pay loadup so much credit and use it for taxis they don't carry cash because they don't want to run the risk of being robbed oh ya and there trained in self defence

one funny story that i was told by a st helens licencing offical was a few of the girls failed the warriington knowladge test fair enough i did to on first attempt but rather than resit it they decided to go to st helens council and apply for hackney/private driver licences there theres no knowladge test in st helens you just have to pass the crb and pay the council they then came back to warrington and presented the badges to our LA stating they we taxi drivers and when our LO told them there badges only allow them to drive taxi's in the st helens area not warrington they went back to st helens council and demanded there money back which st helens council said politly NO


Jeez and heres little old me being made out to be the villain.

So they run on the same rates as Hacks and give a percentage to charity and are fully licensed by Warrington.

As I said, selling franchises is more lucrative than doing fares.

Captain Cab

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