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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:40 am 
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Sussex wrote:
So even if a driver offered a 7% discount, then on some fares they would still be exceeding the council's set rate. :roll:

Only in Edinburgh. ](*,)


Thats right, theres not a lot of difference between 6.4 percent and 7% but the actual daytime tariff works out at 6.4% rounded up from 6.38. Thats over 1.4 miles which I assume is what they based the increase. You cant get any higher than 6.4% on tariff one if you travel beyond 1.4 miles because from then on it starts to reduce very slowly until it reaches parity with the previous tariff. Tariff one will take longer to reach a parity than tariff 2 because there is 2 pence diference in the yardage rate where as tariff 2 has only 1p difference.

Tariff 2 as I previously stated is more than 2% over the 7% for 1.4 miles, however each mileage mark in most cases would give a different percentage figure with the more options you tweek, such as flagfall, yardage, and yardage rate. Edinburgh have done all three. Probably the simplest thing to do when changing a fare structure is just up the flag fall, reduce the yardage and increase waiting time. Other elements such as soiling charge etc should be straigthforward.

Each to his own I guess.

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JD


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:09 am 
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Seems old Alan Gladrags (fasties) is helping the council out by covering up for their cock-up.

A nice little table of fares just in case someone over charges a punter.

Imagine that :roll:

Good old Alan that's what I say always the champion for justice.

As long as it doesn't upset the council. Well you have to get your priorities right don't you.

They just might derestrict. :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:54 am 
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I am totaly confused :? by all this, why not reduce fairs and get more work??? it could be logical :shock: :shock: as nearly every time iv been in the city there are cabs parked up every where :?:


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:31 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
I am totaly confused :? by all this, why not reduce fairs and get more work??? it could be logical :shock: :shock: as nearly every time iv been in the city there are cabs parked up every where :?:


can't reduce them, they have expensive plates to pay for.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:21 pm 
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peebee wrote:
skippy41 wrote:
I am totaly confused :? by all this, why not reduce fairs and get more work??? it could be logical :shock: :shock: as nearly every time iv been in the city there are cabs parked up every where :?:


can't reduce them, they have expensive plates to pay for.



If thats the case how come the fares are often more expensive in areas that do not place a limit on the numbers of taxis?

It's one of the questions that nobody ever seems able to answer.

Over to you PeeBee, you explain it to me, because nobody else seems able to.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:31 pm 
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If thats the case how come the fares are often more expensive in areas that do not place a limit on the numbers of taxis?


And the evidence is?

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:39 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
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If thats the case how come the fares are often more expensive in areas that do not place a limit on the numbers of taxis?


And the evidence is?

Captain Cab


I think Stu must be referring to figures produced by the T&G during the OFT aftermath. However, the issue was addressed in Myth and Reality, and Stu hasn't disputed this analysis, perhaps suggesting that he hasn't read it :)

Fare levels comparisons

The T&G also points to the lower fares in restricted areas as evidence in favour of quantity controls:

T&G:
Quote:
The T&G believe that the argument that ‘unofficial premium value attached to taxi vehicle licences when taxi vehicles are sold’ is irrelevant. This is because it is the welfare issues of price and quality of service which are the most relevant. The grey market argument would only be relevant if economic rent was being earned. But it would be difficult to argue that ‘economic rent’ is being earned when the average fare price for a 4 mile journey is lower in restricted areas.

We analysed data from the DfT (Taxi and Private Hire Vehicles in England and Wales 2001-02 Table 7) in regard to taxi fares for a four-mile trip. This analysis showed that the average fare for in restricted areas was £6.33 compared with £6.46 for unrestricted areas.



TDO:
The most obvious initial impression from this is that the difference in fares is hardly significant – at two per cent, this is certainly statistically insignificant in the intuitive sense, if not the technical one. The T&G trumpets this difference as “further compelling evidence that restricting taxi numbers actually works in favour of the consumer”, whereas these figures could just as well be interpreted to conclude that there is no material difference in fares between restricted and unrestricted areas.

However, this is by no means the end of the story, and for several reasons the T&G’s superficial analysis arguably misrepresents the true position, for several reasons.

First, the T&G’s analysis makes the rudimentary mistake of equating fare levels with earnings, while this is certainly not the case. It seems highly probable that taxis in more rural areas are less busy than in urban areas, and the former tend to be unrestricted, while the latter are usually restricted. Thus hourly takings (say) are likely to be higher in restricted areas, meaning that the T&G’s comparison does not show the full picture as regards income, and therefore whether ‘economic rent’ is being earned.

Secondly, the T&G make much of the fact that restricting numbers assists in ‘double-shifting’ the taxi, and figures were provided earlier to lend support to this view. Thus with largely similar fares a double-shifted vehicle will have around twice the income of the single-shifted one, rendering simple comparisons of fare levels somewhat misleading. Obviously part of the double-shifted taxi’s additional income will be required to pay the driver, but in restricted areas the driver will pay an inflated rental based on the plate premium, as was demonstrated earlier.

Thirdly, another point on the urban/rural dichotomy is that urban taxis tend to have less dead mileage, once again rendering bare comparisons of fare levels misleading – in the restricted areas taxis will tend to have less ‘dead’ mileage and time incurred without a fare in the taxi. Indeed, there is some evidence of rural authorities adopting higher tariffs on this basis, again undermining the T&G’s comparison. However, given the policy lottery evident in the UK as regards the fare-setting process, and the lack of economic coherence often evident, it often seems that fare levels might just as well be drawn from a hat, which may well explain the lack of any material difference evident in the T&G’s comparison – but taxis in restricted areas can still benefit through double-shifting and more efficient use of mileage and less time waiting for fares. Although regional trends in fare levels are evident, this could well be due to tariff-setting authorities looking to neighbouring authorities when setting fares, and this does little to make the process economically rational.

Fourthly, the fare levels used by the T&G are the local authority-set tariffs, which do not necessarily equate to actual fares charged. In many areas discounting from the set fares is widespread. For example, a report on fare negotiations in Weymouth and Portland said:

It should be pointed out that due to fierce competition the vast majority of hackney carriages and private hire vehicles charge considerably less than the set rates and charges vary from company to company.

Again, it seems likely that this discounting is more widespread in rural/unrestricted areas as opposed to urban/restricted areas – for example, the higher earnings required by the market in more urban areas will make taxi fares more sustainable, as might the greater market power afforded by the plate cartels in restricted areas. Thus actual fares charged could well be higher in urban/restricted areas.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:45 pm 
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I'd be fibbing if i read that too TDO.

I think my own point in all of this would be that dereg (and the OFT report) doesnt actually lead to lower fares.

Bearing in mind the very differing approaches taken throughout the country towards fare increases. And the length of time between them in some areas, its a strange tact to take.

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:55 pm 
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At a glance these two spring to mind

Fares over 2 miles April issue PHM

Regulated ......Liverpool £4.40

Deregulated Wirral £ 4.00

Regulated Blackpool £4.90

Deregulated Fylde £4.40

regards

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:35 pm 
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Skull wrote:
Seems old Alan Gladrags (fasties) is helping the council out by covering up for their cock-up.

A nice little table of fares just in case someone over charges a punter.

Imagine that :roll:

Good old Alan that's what I say always the champion for justice.

As long as it doesn't upset the council. Well you have to get your priorities right don't you.

They just might derestrict. :shock:


Derestrict? you can forget that old chestnut for the time being.

One day, Garry, you might actually put your brain in gear before spouting off.
There are drivers out there who are concerned about this, so the spreadsheet helps them, not the council.
"champion for justice" not me; that's your pretend role.
Oh, and by the way, what you don't know is that the council is upset about Fasties, but what they're upset about....well, my priorities mean I don't have time to let you know!!!
:wink: :wink: :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Quote:
There are drivers out there who are concerned about this, so the spreadsheet helps them, not the council.


Its funny that because the statement in the press actually read to me the same way!

All the fasties site did was tell the driver of his legal obligations.

Which coming from a drivers forum is errm the forums job!

No conspiracy, no dropping the site in the poo, if anything the site needs appaluded!

Captain Cab

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 pm 
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you knock 7% off and you go below the old tariff....7% rise my arse
let them sort it out ......they changed the fares, they cocked it up .


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:42 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Quote:
If thats the case how come the fares are often more expensive in areas that do not place a limit on the numbers of taxis?


And the evidence is?

Captain Cab


Well reading the tables in PHM the regulated areas should all be at the more expensive end of the table, this does not seem to be the case.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:53 am 
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alan G wrote:
Skull wrote:
Seems old Alan Gladrags (fasties) is helping the council out by covering up for their cock-up.

A nice little table of fares just in case someone over charges a punter.

Imagine that :roll:

Good old Alan that's what I say always the champion for justice.

As long as it doesn't upset the council. Well you have to get your priorities right don't you.

They just might derestrict. :shock:


Derestrict? you can forget that old chestnut for the time being.

One day, Garry, you might actually put your brain in gear before spouting off.
There are drivers out there who are concerned about this, so the spreadsheet helps them, not the council.
"champion for justice" not me; that's your pretend role.
Oh, and by the way, what you don't know is that the council is upset about Fasties, but what they're upset about....well, my priorities mean I don't have time to let you know!!!
:wink: :wink: :wink:



Oh go on give us a clue Alan, you cant leave me hanging like this.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:42 am 
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Quote:
Well reading the tables in PHM the regulated areas should all be at the more expensive end of the table, this does not seem to be the case.


So what conclusions can be drawn?

Captain Cab

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