Taxi Driver Online

Well the unthinkable has happened, I went to get my meter re calibrated, and informed the inspector that I was going PH, and that I would be keeping my meter in the cab, and he said that if I was to do this I would have to conform with council policy and have the same tariff as the hacks.
I informed him that PH do not need to do this and he said that I would be red carded immediately If I did not have the councils tariff whether PH or hack
Can the council do this?????

Section 17 of the Civic Government Scotland act 1982 deals with the setting of Taxi fares, there is no reference in that section to private hire vehicles.

Regards

JD

The offences section of the act makes it illegal for a PH to charge more than the taxi fares if fitted with a taximeter.

So if a taxi's meter has to be properly calibrated even if the driver can discount the fare then presumably its reasonble for the council to insist that a PH car with a meter should read the same.

If any person demands fares or other charges in respect of the hire of a taxi or for the hire of a private hire car which is fitted with a taximeter in excess of the scales established under sections 17 and 18 of this Act, he shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £2,500.

Thanks fre fife but i was going to have a lower fare than the hacks

I think that aspect was dealt with in the middle paragraph?

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

I see that, and your point is taken but section 17 gives an authority the right to set Taxi fares and section 21 under offences states that it is an offence to charge more than what is on the meter. This as we all know consistant with the provisions set down throughout the rest of the UK.

The same section as you rightly say states.

If any person demands fares or other charges in respect of the hire of a taxi or for the hire of a private hire car which is fitted with a taximeter............... in excess of the scales established under sections 17 and 18 of this Act....... he shall be guilty of an offence.

Again the offence is charging more than what is on the meter but there is nothing in section 17, which states an authority can regulate Private hire fares? The reference in section 21.5 could easily be construed as applying to Taxis alone and it only refers to private hire vehicles that have a meter fitted and not withstanding the fact that section 17 does not empower the authority to regulate private hire fares. However, charging more than what is on the meter is an offence in every UK authority private hire or taxi?

The starting point should be section 17 and considering that section relates only to Taxis there must be a discrepancy in section 21.5 if it means private hire vehicles are covered under section 17?

Regards

JD

If we forget about meters for a moment, is there anything in the 1982 act, which states a council, can regulate private hire fares?

The answer to that is no.

If there is nothing in the 1982 act which states they can regulate fares then the presumption of parliament is that fares should not be regulated in the private hire sector. If fares were regulated then it would create a cartel situation and void of competition. For those who have short memories the OfT wrote to all private hire firms in Bury stating the fixing of uniform private hire fares was an offence under the competition act.

So we have a situation where a council cannot regulate fares for private hire vehicles that do not have a meter. This could mean that any P/H firm can charge what they like if they so wished. Considering councils do not have the power to regulate fares without a meter how can it be construed that they have the power to force Private hire proprietors to charge no more than applies to taxis when a meter is fitted?

If it was a case of keeping private hire fares in line with hackney carriage fares then the Government would have given licensing authorities that power, as it is there is nothign in the act which empowers a council to regulate Private hire fares.

Regards

JD

I mentioned the incosistency a few weeks ago in relation to Edinburgh but no one seemed to be able to solve it then either, but I'm quite sure that in Edinburgh the council seem to think the offences section means that they can limit PH with meters to the official taxi fares. I think most PH use meters in Dundee as well and maybe Aberdeen.




[quote="JD"] Considering councils do not have the power to regulate fares without a meter how can it be construed that they have the power to force Private hire proprietors to charge no more than applies to taxis when a meter is fitted?

I might agree if there was some ambiguity in the offences section but in fact the wording seems quite clear not open to question. Obviously it would be clearer if the section 17 had said the max fares applied to PH fitted with a taxi meter as well as to taxis, but I would still say that the offences section is sufficiently clear to rely upon to regulate PH fares if the driver wants to install a meter.

Since the offence is so clear my guess is that the offence was intended to apply and its the section 17 that should have been clearer. But even if this was what parliament intended how the sheriff would deal with the contradiciton I don't know, but I'd be inclined to disagree with your interpretation because section 17 is normally just for taxis so there would be no need to mention PH but once the offence comes into play then s17 indirectly comes into play and in effect regulates PH fares as well.

Perhaps the intention was that if PH wanted to fit meters then they would have to go along with the taxi fares because otherwise it would cause confusion if meters were reading differently.

The quote in the above post isn't clear, so I'll try again:


I mentioned the inconsistency a few weeks ago in relation to Edinburgh but no one seemed to be able to solve it then either, but I'm quite sure that in Edinburgh the council seem to think the offences section means that they can limit PH with meters to the official taxi fares. I think most PH use meters in Dundee as well and maybe Aberdeen.






I might agree if there was some ambiguity in the offences section but in fact the wording seems quite clear not open to question. Obviously it would be clearer if the section 17 had said the max fares applied to PH fitted with a taxi meter as well as to taxis, but I would still say that the offences section is sufficiently clear to rely upon to regulate PH fares if the driver wants to install a meter.

Since the offence is so clear my guess is that the offence was intended to apply and its the section 17 that should have been clearer. But even if this was what parliament intended how the sheriff would deal with the contradiciton I don't know, but I'd be inclined to disagree with your interpretation because section 17 is normally just for taxis so there would be no need to mention PH but once the offence comes into play then s17 indirectly comes into play and in effect regulates PH fares as well.

Perhaps the intention was that if PH wanted to fit meters then they would have to go along with the taxi fares because otherwise it would cause confusion if meters were reading differently.

I'm not so sure about the relevance of the OFT/competition law - of course, competition law doesn't apply to government regulation, so if PH fares are legitmately regulated then it shouldn't be a problem, but the question of whether or not they are legitimate is presumably more a question of licensing law rather than competition law.

In Brighton, for example, many if not most PH have meters fitted, and I think a lot of places are similar. Indeed, the OFT mentioned in their market study that many LAs require PH to charge the taxi fares.

I think the issue in Bury was that fares weren't regulated, thus competition law comes into play and when operators got together to fix fares then this was a restriction of competition contrary to the Competition Act.

By the same token, since taxi fares aren't regulated 'down the way' I suspect that if taxi operators agreed not to discount (or perhaps to offer the same discount) then the Competition Act would become relevant, but I doubt if this is a scenario that the OFT has ever considered.

Of course, the same could be said of contract-rigging or other matters that aren't regulated - the bottom line is that if something is regulated then competition law is irrelevant, but if it's the trade itself that's doing their own 'regulating' then competion law becomes relevant.

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The OFT remark had no real relevance to Edinburgh, I was making a general point about competition. The Bury saga was in direct response to private hire operators getting together and colluding to set the same fare for all concerned. The reason why the OFT came down hard on Bury is for the simple fact there is no legislation in England or Wales that dictates what fares private hire owners must charge.

To me the legislation in Scotland is quite clear. It would be my understanding that section 21 should read "in respect of private hire vehicles fitted with a Taximeter it is an offence to ask for more than the metered fare".

I would be interested to know if any council in Scotland puts the same tariff sheet in private hire vehicles with or without meters as they do in hackneys?

Answer me this, "Can Edinburgh council regulate private hire fares for vehicles that don't have meters?

My answer is no and I suspect yours will be the same?

So we have a situation were every operator in Scotland without a meter could theoretically charge 1.00 a mile and yet someone who wants to run off a meter, has to charge 1.50 a mile.

I do not believe that is what Parliament intended and it should not be forgot that this act was made and passed by Westminster and not the Scottish Parliament.

As I said there is nothing in the act that even remotely mentions regulating private hire fares and it is inconceivable that Parliament would regulate private hire fairs in Scotland that run off a meter and not regulate fares that don't run off a meter. There is no such legislation in England and Wales so why would they burden Scotland with such an ill thought out condition?

Like I said, my own personal opinion is that the reference in the act is to meters only and that there is no reference to regulating private hire fares.

How Licensing officers interpret section 21 is neither here nor there, at the end of the day it will come down to how the judiciary interprets the act and for me that cannot come quick enough?

Regards

JD

I've only just familiarised myself with the fares section in the 1982 act. Under normal circumstances I would let the guys in Scotland debate what is pertinent to them and I wouldn't normally get involved unless it involved the court cases in Edinburgh. However having read the relevant sections 17, 18 and 21 I feel strong enough to voice the opinion that the act does not give power to a council to regulate fares for private hire vehicles. Your assumption is based on section 21 which sets out offences, you place a great deal of weight on that section, in fact you place all your weight on that section and ignore the rest of the act. Section 17 is specific to Taxis. According to this act and Halsburys statutes, Taxis equal Hackney carriages, so when section 17 mentions taxis it does not mean private hire vehicles.

You might wonder why no reference is made to private hire vehicles in section 17, especially if that section of the act was designed to regulate private hire fares? I'm sure the judiciary will wonder that too? You form the conclusion that excluding private hire vehicles from section 17 and 18 was an omission by Parliament. I disagree, I think the wording in section 21 is the culprit and that the reference is without doubt to taximeters and the overcharging of a fare, regardless of the Tariff?

It is your assumption that section 21 relates to both Taxi and Private hire vehicles in respect of them both charging the same fare, it is my assumption that section 21 relates to overcharging but it does not state that private hire fares must be the same as hackney carriages?

I will ask you the same question I asked Dusty.

Does it specifically state anywhere in the 1982 act that a council can regulate private hire fares with or without a meter?

Regards

JD

Definition of Taxi, Section 23 1982 act Interpretation of sections 10-22.

In section 10-22 of this act "Taxi" means a hire car which is engaged, by arrangements made in a public place between the person to be conveyed in it or a person acting on his behalf and its driver for a journey beginning there and then.

"Private hire car means a hire car other than a Taxi within the meaning of this subsection".

Regards

JD

Surely the easy way out skippy is to have your meter on but if you know the job is worth £10 metered switch the meter off at £8 or whenever you are happy to, but let your fare know you are putting it off. Either that or rip the meter out and run a mileage sheet zeroing the small mileometer at the start of every job. I know here in Fife its a fitted meter at council rates or no meter at all in private hire vechiles

Nice one Broxibear,just come up with a new company name lol
discount taxi I think it may work as i did a few runs last night using the new tariff and was shocked to find how much the fare had increaced
one of my regulars was paying £5.00 on the meter but last night it was £6.80 for the same run and if that was after midnight it would have been £7.80.
So I will run the meter for a few days just to find out how much the runs have gone up and keep notes but still give a discount
The inspector said I could do this
I think that the new fares are just to much of an increase all at once and they will be a shock to some people and posably cost jobs